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1
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 21 Dic 2006 18:45
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http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
 

Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
questions in America today, because this question lies at the heart of
the American culture wars.
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God
as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in
our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the
money, pray in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution from
every curriculum. We should focus our society on God and his infallible
Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.
On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete
illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. We should
eliminate God from our society because God is meaningless. Belief in God
is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a
significant portion of the population to be completely delusional.
But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary?
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we
should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing
when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the
true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal
amputees?"
Why won't God heal amputees?" may seem like an odd name for a Web site.
The reason for choosing it is simple: this is one of the most important
questions that we can ask about God.
The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a fundamental
aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of prayer
has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
  Watch the video
To help you understand why this question is so important, let's look at
an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one day, and he
tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic, and he
schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease. Meanwhile, you
are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God day and night
for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your doctor examines you
again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God for answering
your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that God has
worked a miracle in your life.
The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the
surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to know whether
God is playing a role or not when we pray?
Unless you take the time to intelligently analyze this situation, it
looks ambiguous. God might have miraculously cured your disease, as many
Christians believe. But God might also be imaginary, and the
chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured you. Or your
body's immune system might have cured the cancer itself.
When your tumor dissappeared, in other words, it might simply have been
a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your prayer may have
had zero effect.
How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that worked the
cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous
situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there is no
ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the prayer or not.
That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
Think about it this way. The Bible clearly promises that God answers
prayers. For example, in Mark 11:24 Jesus says, "Therefore I tell you,
whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and
it will be yours." And billions of Christians believe these promises.
You can find thousands of books, magazine articles and Web sites talking
about the power of prayer. According to believers, God is answering
millions of their prayers every day.
So what should happen if we pray to God to restore amputated limbs?
Clearly, if God is real, limbs should regenerate through prayer. In
reality, they do not.
Why not? Because God is imaginary. Notice that there is zero ambiguity
in this situation. There is only one way for a limb to regenerate
through prayer: God must exist and God must answer prayers. What we find
is that whenever we create a unambiguous situation like this and look at
the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never "answers prayers"
if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will approach this issue
from several different angles in this book, but Chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8
are particularly important:
·      Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?
·      Chapter 6 - Why do you need health insurance?
·      Chapter 7 - Why can't you move a mountain?
·      Chapter 8 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
  Watch the video
The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of
coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we analyze God's
responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools, what we find is
that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In other words,
when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for explaining any
situation, they are identical. For example, this article points out:
One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier
this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not
reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized
for heart treatments. [ref]
It also says:
A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by
a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other
healing methods.
No valid scientific study has ever found any evidence that prayer works.
See this page for details.
You can see the same effect in the following prayer. Let's assume that
you are a true believer and you do believe that God cures cancer. What
would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:
Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we
pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray
in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7,
Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19
and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely
heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and
help millions of people in remarkable ways. If God cures cancer, then
this is an easy prayer for an omnipotent, all-loving God to answer.
The fact is, what this prayer does is remove ambiguity. As soon as we do
that, we see the true nature of "God." There is no way that a
coincidence can answer this prayer, and, sure enough, the prayer goes
unanswered.
If you look at the data, you can see exactly what is happening here:
·      When we pray to God about any non-ambigous situation, God never
answers the prayer.
·      When we analyse any ambiguous prayer using statistical tools, we find
zero effect from prayer.
In other words, every "answered prayer" truly is a coincidence, nothing
more. "God" doesn't "answer prayers" at all. The belief in prayer is
pure superstition. Non-ambiguous prayers (like those of amputees) show
us, conclusively, that the whole idea that "God answers prayers" is an
illusion created by human imagination.:
 

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2
Da: bgr...@aol.com - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 21 Dic 2006 20:05
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- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

I always wondered about that.....I sure am glad you cleared that up for
me.
 
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3
Da: Bernie Woodham - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 21 Dic 2006 21:11
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

 
news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
 

 

> http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
 

> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions
> in America today, because this question lies at the heart of the American
> culture wars.
> If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God
> as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our
> courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money, pray
> in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution from every
> curriculum.

 

Is Don Really Real?  Rumor has it that he's Really Kiddin'
 
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4
Da: Pastor Marc - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 21 Dic 2006 21:27
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Bernie Woodham wrote:
> "really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
> > http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
 

> > Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions
> > in America today, because this question lies at the heart of the American
> > culture wars.
> > If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God
> > as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our
> > courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money, pray
> > in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution from every
> > curriculum.
 

> Is Don Really Real?  Rumor has it that he's Really Kiddin'

 

Six reasons why prayer doesnt always get answered the way you want
1. personal sin or unconfessed sin - Psalm 66:18 - this blocks many
prayers
2. It's Not God's will - 1 John 5:14
3. God says no - 2 Corinthians 12:7-10
4. God says later - last paragraph of Daniel 12
5. God says "make sure your motives are right - James 4:2-3
 

It does not automatically follow that if you dont get what you want,
then God doesn't exist. There are these and many other possible reasons
why a prayer may not get answered to your satisfaction.
 

I recommend a good book like William Lane Craig's "Hard Questions, Real
Answers." or if you are a brain, get a good book where an atheist and a
theist debate the existence of God - honestly,these sorts of posts will
not resolve the issue for all time.
 

An atheist said, "If there is a God, may he prove himself by striking
me dead right now." Nothing happened. "You see, there is not
God." Another responded, "You've only proved that He is a
gracious God."
 

PM
 

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5
Da: badlands420 - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 02:37
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> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
> questions in America today, because this question lies at the heart of the
> American culture wars.

 
You're not American. Go to an anti-seal clubbing rally and mind your own
fuckin' business, eh.
 
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6
Da: J Buck - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 03:47
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so why'd you go there?
 
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7
Da: badlands420 - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 04:32
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> so why'd you go there?

 
Tim Horton's.
 
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8
Da: J Buck - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 05:29
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badlands420 wrote: <J Buck wrote: so why'd you go there?>

 
<Tim Horton's.>
 

Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my state, almost a
year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to death, then raped
her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a blizzard and abandoned
the car on the interstate.
 

Though I'm sure their food is great.
 

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9
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 05:45
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my state, almost a
> year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to death, then raped
> her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a blizzard and abandoned
> the car on the interstate.

 
That would never happen in a Tim Horton's in Canada.
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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10
Da: Tif - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 06:57
Email: "Tif" <tifere...@yahoo.com>
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A partial answer lies in your name, really real.
Then take it from there and i will attempt to later come back,  hang on
this threat maybe.  Not sure though. Depends on tens by tens of other
things.
 

Let me get through the first question now. at least that . let me smash
or expand, your will is his.
 

You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round and beyond :
 

 

> Is God real, or is he imaginary? I

 
Let ' s  smash or expand or ..... you name it , you tell it as is or as
imagined , reality has many heads, maybe too many indeed, but still -
those are part of the One Source of Becoming
 

Now, go here :
Take away the comma between your questions and the scene starts
changin' ,
 

would you agree? then if you are still following me, take it to another
direction. There is a small breeze to day, ever so light,
the thunder is also seen rollin' on the moutain
a blizzzzzzard zzzzzzzzooms through Colorado.
 

I'll try to access this juglgling thread at another time. Use a bit too
much of the rational , with tongue in cheek , approach to hang out too
long on it. The maze of the rational has been explored sufficiently ,
for my taste. But then that's just me.
That's the way my wheel are built. The rational is a big wheel, i like
those small wheels better. They can fit in more worlds. No so
cumbersome. Give me a chakra , reveal your  sephira  and I get more
satisfaction.
 

But I will try, for the love of X,  to attend to the rational maze too.
for the love of X .
for God's sake, in service i can smash some of those structures, open
the windows, get some fresh air in this hog eyed world. Did I get the
hog right?
 

that's not matter greatly, does it ?
 

So bye for now and Happy Days,
 

Tif .8.
 

On Dec 22, 12:45 am, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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Carattere fisso - Carattere giustificato

 
11
Da: Mr Jinx - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 14:33
Email: "Mr Jinx" <vernon__bris...@hotmail.com>
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- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

Ah, the mystery of suffering.  The big one!
 

Here are some thoughts on the subject:
 

There is nothing in all of life that tests faith more than suffering -
both on the part of the one who suffers and on the part of those who
must watch a loved one suffer.
 

There is always the tendency to cry out, "Why me, Lord?" There is
always the temptation to do as Job's wife suggested - to curse God and
die (Job 2:9).
 

Suffering is paradoxical. It has a way of making or breaking us. It can
convert a person into a bitter, depressed and vengeful wretch who
spends his time shaking his fist at God. Or, it can have the opposite
effect; it can draw a person deeper into faith.
 

The response depends upon the quality of one's faith. As Billy Graham
has often put it, "The same sun that melts the butter hardens the
clay."
 

The Example of Job
 

Why must the righteous suffer? It is a difficult question. The Bible is
full of many examples of righteous people who suffered mightily.
Ezekiel says that Job was one of the three most righteous men who ever
lived. Yet, who has ever suffered as Job did?
 

Job's incredible suffering was aggravated by his so-called friends who
came to him and blamed it all on his sins. Their accusations were
unjustified, for the very first verse of Job says he was "blameless,
upright, and a God-fearing man."
 

Unfortunately, the friends of Job are alive and well today, anxious to
blame all our misfortunes - all our suffering - upon our personal sins.
 

Later, another friend of Job gave him a partially correct answer to the
reason for his suffering. He said it was for the purpose of refining
Job in righteousness: a "partially correct answer" because the Bible
teaches that suffering can refine us spiritually if our hearts are
truly yielded to God.
 

Consider these words of Paul, another righteous man, who suffered
mightily:
 

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our
introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult
in hope of the glory of God.
 

"And not only this, but we also exult in our sufferings, knowing that
suffering brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven
character; and proven character, hope . . ." (Romans 5:1-4)
 

Job suffered that he might be refined in righteousness. But there was
another, more important and ultimate reason for his suffering.
 

As Job continued to cry out, "Why me, Lord?" the Lord finally appeared
to him and responded to his ...

leggi tutto

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12
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 16:06
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round and beyond :
 

>> Is God real, or is he imaginary? I

 

No, actually I didn't do that. I posted the website that asked that,
after suggesting that people don't go there, and pasted some of the text
that was at that website. Don't shoot the messenger.
 
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13
Da: Tif - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 17:51
Email: "Tif" <tifere...@yahoo.com>
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On Dec 22, 10:06 pm, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
 

 

> > You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round and beyond :
 

> >> Is God real, or is he imaginary? INo, actually I didn't do that. I posted the website that asked that,
> after suggesting that people don't go there, and pasted some of the text
> that was at that website. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Never was it my aim.      Tif .
 
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14
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 18:28
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> Ah, the mystery of suffering.  The big one!

 
No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big one. The
blind can see, the lame can walk  a cancer can go into remission, all
thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine intervention. The question
is why amputees have been singled out to never receive god's grace in
this manner.
 

But the real question is, Jinx, what inspired you to write all this? It
must be the xmas season getting to you.
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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15
Da: Bernie Woodham - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 21:25
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

 
news:4qJih.506903$1T2.296453@pd7urf2no...
 
>> Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my state, almost a
>> year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to death, then raped
>> her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a blizzard and abandoned
>> the car on the interstate.
 

> That would never happen in a Tim Horton's in Canada.

 

No. In Canada the killer would have ground her up and served her as a
special dish.
 

http://www.kndo.com/Global/story.asp?S=5789999&nav=menu484_2_8
 

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16
Da: Bernie Woodham - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 21:29
Email: "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

 
news:cBUih.511656$5R2.418401@pd7urf3no...
 

 

>> Ah, the mystery of suffering.  The big one!
 

> No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big one. The
> blind can see, the lame can walk  a cancer can go into remission, all
> thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine intervention. The question
> is why amputees have been singled out to never receive god's grace in this
> manner.

 

Prosthetics.
 
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17
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 22 Dic 2006 23:23
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> Prosthetics.

 
I see your point. God's blocking of the amputees' wishes is a way of
making people evolve the technology of prosthetics that work as well as
human limbs.  To do this, people have to emulate the creator, thus
making humanity more god-like.
 

The unhealed amputees are playing a crucial role in god's design.
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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18
Da: Rib O'flavin - vedi profilo
Data: Sab 23 Dic 2006 03:19
Email: "Rib O'flavin" <Sendith...@att.net>
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I had a friend who lost his leg during a solar eclipse, and when he got back
home he was surprised with one of them there Honey Baked Hams.  "My prayers
have been answered!" he exclaimed.  "What?" I said with a puzzled tone, "You
mean to stand there and tell me that you've been praying for a ham instead
of praying for your leg to grow back on?"  "Well," he said, "I was praying
for some good sex, some good friends, and some good food.  I got screwed
real hard by the hospital, now I'm here with my good friends and there's of
good food, so it looks like my prayers have all been answered."
 
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19
Da: Mr Jinx - vedi profilo
Data: Sab 23 Dic 2006 11:25
Email: "Mr Jinx" <vernon__bris...@hotmail.com>
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really real wrote:
> > Ah, the mystery of suffering.  The big one!
 

> No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big one. The
> blind can see, the lame can walk  a cancer can go into remission, all
> thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine intervention. The question
> is why amputees have been singled out to never receive god's grace in
> this manner.
 

> But the real question is, Jinx, what inspired you to write all this? It
> must be the xmas season getting to you.

 

Don't shoot the messenger.  I just copied it off a web site.
 

Thought I'd post it here because this amputee question of yours seems
to have people stumped and rather than leave them without a leg to
stand on I thought I'd hop into the debate.
 

It's important not to sentimentalize. Amputees can be difficult people,
too.  Just look at Heather Mills.  Surely a test sent to St. Paul.
 

Mr Jinx
 

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20
Da: bobette - vedi profilo
Data: Sab 23 Dic 2006 11:57
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- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

Good to see you going out on a limb here, Mr. Jinx. I'd give an arm and
a leg to be able to write as well as you do. ;-x
 
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21
Da: Just Walkin' - vedi profilo
Data: Sab 23 Dic 2006 16:49
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Rib O'flavin wrote:
> I had a friend who lost his leg during a solar eclipse, and when he got back
> home he was surprised with one of them there Honey Baked Hams.  "My prayers
> have been answered!" he exclaimed.  "What?" I said with a puzzled tone, "You
> mean to stand there and tell me that you've been praying for a ham instead
> of praying for your leg to grow back on?"  "Well," he said, "I was praying
> for some good sex, some good friends, and some good food.  I got screwed
> real hard by the hospital, now I'm here with my good friends and there's of
> good food, so it looks like my prayers have all been answered."

 
About 20 years ago I had the great blessing of being on crutches during
the holiday season in an overwhelmingly Christian community. Of course
the greatest blessing was that I was healing from surgery and I knew
that I was going to get well; in about 8 weeks I would walk unaided
again. Nonetheless, it sensitized me to the frustration felt by those
who have never been able to walk or may never be able to walk again. A
great lesson indeed.
 

But the greatest lesson was learning about this troubled species of
ours. Despite the time of year and the professed beliefs of the
multitudes, over 60% of the shoppers at the mall had no problem bowling
me over to get to the sale tables ahead of me. Make that 70% if you
include folks who let doors close in my face. Even at holiday pageants
I was invisible. Another 20% would tell their children, "Don't stare at
the man with crutches!" stripping me even of my humanity before their
children's eyes.
 

Of course I did enjoy the compassion and brotherly/sisterly spirit of
that 10% who still seemed connected to their own humanity. They opened
doors, helped me with my packages, even helped make way through the
crowds. I never asked about their faith but didn't have to; it was
obvious from their kind and gentle ways that their's rose far, far
above that of those who actively profess. God NEVER said that he would
help those who help themselves; he told us to help each other.
 

Great blessings, great lessons come to those with eyes and ears (and
maybe a crippled paw) this season. But for the grace of the almighty,
there go I.
 

Two years later I got together with some friends and launched a
homeless shelter for married couples. But that, my brothers and
sisters, is another story.
 

'Tis always the season of grace, whatever stories of the cosmos you
believe. How have you shown yours lately?
 

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22
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 01:36
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
 

 

Don,
please tell me.
 

Is this a joke or is this for real?
I've been reading and re-reading this for a week now and I can't get over
it.
On one side I can't believe someone can be so naive and disingenuous to
write such childish stuff, on the other hand I've got a hunch some branches
of fundamentalist atheists might stretch so far and write crap like this.
But I dont' believe a clever guy like you may fall head and feet into it so
easily.
So, before posting what my objections to these comedians would be (provided
they were, instead, serious) could you please tell me if you (they) are
joking?
 

Thanks!
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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23
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 06:10
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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  > really real
 

 

> please tell me.
 

> Is this a joke or is this for real?

 

Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets. What
whywontgodhealamputees.com has done is prove the non-existence of an
interventionist god in a most astute way.
 

The idea that amputees never have their limbs grow back is something I'd
never thought of before, but now I see it is a fundamental proof that
god never answers prayers. Imagine, all these amputees praying in vain
that god somehow regrow their lost arms or legs. Who wouldn't pray if
they suffered an amputeeing?  Yet in all human history there's never
been an amputee in human history who's had his limb grow back. So, I
don't think its a joke when they say that that the most important
question arising from the bible is why won't god heal amputees?
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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24
Da: Barbara - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 15:49
Email: "Barbara" <barbarac...@yahoo.com>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

 
news:A3Jjh.526039$R63.80881@pd7urf1no...
 

 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

I haven't gone to the site but obvious everyone who wrote there had God
answer "no" to their prayers.
I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am curious if there
are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg. If you went to
another healing site you might find some miracles there, different answers
seem to always appear where you are looking.
 
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25
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 16:53
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am curious if there
> are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg. If you went to
> another healing site you might find some miracles there, different answers
> seem to always appear where you are looking.

 
I knew a guy once whose stigmata holes grew over and healed, but that's
a different holiday.
 
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26
Da: Tif - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 17:20
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On Dec 25, 9:49 pm, "Barbara" <barbarac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

         a restoring arm or leg. If you went to
 

 

> another healing site you might find some miracles there, different answers
> seem to always appear where you are looking.

 
         BRAVO !  BRAVO !
 

( from Ol' Man Tif .)
 

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27
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Lun 25 Dic 2006 20:48
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:A3Jjh.526039$R63.80881@pd7urf1no...
 

 

>  > really real
>> please tell me.
 

>> Is this a joke or is this for real?
 

> Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets

 

************************************
 I don't think its a joke when they say that that the most important
 

 

> question arising from the bible is why won't god heal amputees?

 
Ok, Don.
In a nutshell, then.
(we'll have time to get deeper, if you like....:-D...)
 

1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly and
always (sic) ]
2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to be fulfilled
3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have to ask God, as
Pastor Marc has recently
pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking for s.o. to die)
5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not suppoed to hope
for
If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God you'll be healed
If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up thus they pray God
you will wake up.
If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets back here, thus
nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them strength and hope and
to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray for them to come
back to life.
Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't heal the amputees,
why not
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule out the Holocaust?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset the universe to
*Man = Good*?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make us all young again?
9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not *hopeable*
( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just wanted to make it
claer...:-)))
10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be, in the end, unless
it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really mean it!)
a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question; *Why does God accept
evil*?
11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious (and actually
unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know, Christians believe
God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept it.
re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but he won't because he
will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
 

This is just to put it in a nutshell, my friend, as I said above.
 

But let me tell you something:
Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time desperately
clutching at straws to demosntrate the non-existence of God?
Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to disrupting our
faith?
I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist NG!
What's your answer?
 

Very friendly
(merry Christmas agian)
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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28
Da: Bernie Woodham - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 07:24
Email: "Bernie Woodham" <birnhamw...@insightbb.com>
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"beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it> wrote in message

 
news:45902b36$0$4252$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it...
 

 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

Well, without trying to sound pompous or smartass, it seems to me the only
thing that one should for Really Real pray about is for an increase in
faith.  Because, being a human being it is so difficult to believe.
 
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29
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 16:00
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time desperately
> clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence of God?
> Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to disrupting our
> faith?

 
It's all about believing in pie in the sky when you die. While faith in
illusions can be very useful for people in desperate impossible
situations, when the general population believes in supernatural
redemption, then chores on earth just don't get done. Sure, Christians
love to give to the poor on xmas, you don't see the church trying to
redistribute the wealth of the land. Religion is a repressive belief
because it gives people an excuse to ignore the problems at hand.
 

And even if my political analysis were faulty, one would still want to
help a neighbour with his delusions. Suppose your neighbour thought that
the tree in his garden was talking to him and guiding all his actions.
Wouldn't you want to straighten him out?
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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30
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 17:27
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uOakh.529710$R63.317129@pd7urf1no...
 
>> Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time desperately
>> clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence of God?
>> Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to disrupting
>> our faith?
 

> It's all about believing in pie in the sky when you die

 

******************CUT******************
 

You haven't answered my questions yet.
:-)
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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31
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 17:34
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> You haven't answered my questions yet.

 
Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I thought I had
answered your questions. Let me try again
 

You asked, "Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time
desperately clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence of God?
Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to disrupting
our faith?"
 

I definitely answered that one. I basically said that atheists want to
help misguided people break out of their illusions and become productive
( progressive) citizens.
 

You also said, "I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist NG!"
 

If it turned out that Bob Dylan had become an atheist, would you stay
away from rmd?
 

Now, if I missed any other questions, please write them again.
 

What's your answer?
 

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32
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 17:56
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:6ackh.524378$5R2.277126@pd7urf3no...
 

 

>> You haven't answered my questions yet.
 

> Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I thought I had
> answered your questions.

 

No, you haven't.
And my questions were not only relegated in the final part of my post.
There were plenty in my quick survey on *why the godhaters are silly*
:-)))
 

 

> I definitely answered that one. I basically said that atheists want to
> help misguided people break out of their illusions and become productive
> ( progressive) citizens.

 
But that's not an answer 'cos that's not related to what I was asking.
I was asking if you realize (you surely do, I know, it was just rethorical)
that everybody perfectly realizes these people are simply scared of God.
This might be a summary of my first post:
FIRST PART
The obvious objections to the laughable *godhatestheamputees* stuff
SECOND PART
Now you do realize they are either joking or silly or don't you?
In other words, I thiught you posted a reaction to my objections or, at any
rate, an answer to the *do you realize or not* question.
Now you come out and pretend you think those people are serious, which I
know it's not what you think it's really real.
But you know better, don't you?
:-D
 

 

> You also said, "I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist NG!"
 

> If it turned out that Bob Dylan had become an atheist, would you stay away
> from rmd?

 

Now what has this got to do with this (off) topic???
Were Dylan an atheist, should this fact make his NG an atheist group???
What are you talking about???
Are all Cat Stevens fans islamic???
Is Mel Gibson's fanbase a catholic association???
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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33
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Mar 26 Dic 2006 18:10
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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>> Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I thought I had
>> answered your questions.
 

> No, you haven't.
> And my questions were not only relegated in the final part of my post.
> There were plenty in my quick survey on *why the godhaters are silly*

 

Beppe, you may believe that I haven't answered your questions, and you
are certainly entitled to your belief. But reading over your first post,
I can't find any questions I haven't answered, so unless you can
rephrase or rewrite these questions, I am going to have to assume they
are holy ghost questions that only some people can see.
 

One thing I did notice is that you have tried to change the debate about
amputees into the big, answerable question of why god accepts evil. This
is missing the whole point. The existence of amputees on our planet is a
much smaller issue, but because God cannot grow their limbs back,
despite His being able to cure all other diseases when He wants to, this
leads to an unraveling of the whole illusion.
 

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34
Da: frinjdwelr - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 07:10
Email: "frinjdwelr" <frinjdw...@charter.net>
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"Barbara" <barbarac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

 
news:FxRjh.3390$sp7.513@newsfe14.phx...
 

 

> I haven't gone to the site but obvious everyone who wrote there had God
> answer "no" to their prayers.
> I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am curious if
> there
> are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg.

 
That is the crux of the purpose of the website.  Of course everyone knows
God doesn't say yes to every prayer.  But why has God always, every single
time, for all time, said "no" to the prayers of amputees when he's
supposedly answered the prayers of others.  Why is God so hateful towards
amputees?  Why are cancer, etc victims more worthy of having their prayers
answered than amputees?  Why has there never been a documented case of an
amputee getting his limb back through prayer?  It may seem silly on the
surface, but these are valid questions.
 
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35
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 12:28
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"frinjdwelr" <frinjdw...@charter.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:o7okh.1537$lG4.807@newsfe04.lga...
 

 

> That is the crux of the purpose of the website.  Of course everyone knows
> God doesn't say yes to every prayer.  But why has God always, every single
> time, for all time, said "no" to the prayers of amputees when he's
> supposedly answered the prayers of others.  Why is God so hateful towards
> amputees?  Why are cancer, etc victims more worthy of having their prayers
> answered than amputees?

 
They aren't worthier at all.
That's why:
(read particularly points from 5 to 9)
*********************************************************
1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly and
always (sic) ]
2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to be fulfilled
3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have to ask God, as
Pastor Marc has recently
pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking for s.o. to die)
5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not suppoed to hope
for
If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God you'll be healed
If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up thus they pray God
you will wake up.
If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets back here, thus
nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them strength and hope and
to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray for them to come
back to life.
Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't heal the amputees,
why not
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule out the Holocaust?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset the universe to
*Man = Good*?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make us all young again?
9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not *hopeable*
( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just wanted to make it
claer...:-)))
10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be, in the end, unless
it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really mean it!)
a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question; *Why does God accept
evil*?
11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious (and actually
unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know, Christians believe
God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept it.
re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but he won't because he
will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
***********************************************************
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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37
Da: musicaner - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 15:49
Email: "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
Gruppi: rec.music.dylan
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you are NOT supposed to PRAY for things that YOU ARE NOT supposed to
PRAY for?
say what?
thats some LOOPHOLE.
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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38
Da: musicaner - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 15:56
Email: "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
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> >11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious (and actually
> >unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know, Christians believe
> >God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept it.
> >re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but he won't because he
> >will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
 

> Jeeeezusss  keee-rist on a stick....

 

AMEN.
 
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39
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 16:17
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167230964.007711.236600@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 

 

> you are NOT supposed to PRAY for things that YOU ARE NOT supposed to
> PRAY for?
> say what?
> thats some LOOPHOLE.

 
Loophole???
I'd rather call them *reading comprehension* problems!!!
:-D)
All jokes apart, my sentence was :
*We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not suppoed to hope
 
> for*

 
not the one you mis(wrote).
 

I take for granted you understand its meaning and, contextually, the big
difference with the sentence you wrongly reported from my post.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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40
Da: musicaner - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 16:22
Email: "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
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> An atheist said, "If there is a God, may he prove himself by striking
> me dead right now." Nothing happened. "You see, there is not
> God." Another responded, "You've only proved that He is a
> gracious God."
 

> PM

 

you GOTTA be kidding.
 
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48
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 18:14
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167238882.525084.115320@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
 

 

> i am not quoting anyone, tho I REALIZE that im not the only one
> that is confused on the LOTTERY number question. are they OK
> to hope for, and if not, why not? the worse that can happen if
> you do hit the JACKPOT is you win MONEY.

 
:-)))
No, it's not ok.
Lotteries, winning money, betting..............they all belong to the realm
of *luxury* and *greed*.
Like asking to get rich.
A contradiction in terms.
*__*
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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49
Da: musicaner - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 18:24
Email: "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
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- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

heres where you LOSE me. every church/preacher etc etc that i am
familiar with ACCEPT MONEY! they ask for it and accept  cash or check
or even debit card. how can MONEY BE bad?
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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50
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Mer 27 Dic 2006 18:38
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> heres where you LOSE me. every church/preacher etc etc that i am
> familiar with ACCEPT MONEY! they ask for it and accept  cash or check
> or even debit card. how can MONEY BE bad?

 
Help yourself:
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/browse/
http://www.unboundbible.org/
:-)))
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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55
Da: Just Walkin' - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 00:34
Email: "Just Walkin'" <kensh...@comcast.net>
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Beppe,
 

Please allow me to try to explain what everyone else is saying. On the
surface it seems simple; one layer down, semantics. At the core: A very
important theological question that begs our attention.
 

Presuming that God has at times both answered prayers and permitted
miracles to happen, and that in this way he has helped a great many
people, why of all the great and many things that he has done has he
not allowed one instance of a limb growing back at any time in history?
 

Yea, to the believer, he has healed cancer, given sight to the blind,
enabled the cripple to walk, brought people back from the dead and
remedied about every affliction known to our kind, why has bringing new
limbs to anyone one thing that he has never done?
 

Do you have an answer for this?
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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56
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 00:57
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> I hope so.  I'm counting on the lottery for my retirement.  Puh-LEEEZE
> Jay-zusss, come to Poppa...  I NEED those numbers!
 

> I've been praying for that Power Ball for years now, and so far it's
> not working.  I just hope the Lord comes through for me before I hit
> 65.

 

The lottery is almost as big a scam as religion. You are not going to
win the lottery. The odds are against you. If you didn't buy lottery
tickets, your chances of winning the lottery would not go down by very
much at all.
 

The lottery is also totally unfair. Poor people spend money they can't
afford on false hope. This money then falls into the hands of the
winner. It's not a good way to redistribute wealth.
 

If it turns out that the hope one gets from a lottery is a positive
experience, then the government should offer that hope as a service. Out
of tax money, one person a year could have their social insurance number
chosen, and they would then be given 50 million dollars. Presumably the
health benefits of such a scheme would pay for itself.
 

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57
Da: musicaner - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 01:08
Email: "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
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if i get the NUMBERS ill donate half my winnings to the CHURCH so
they can go on and use about 10 percent of my 50 percent to help the
poor!!
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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58
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 01:08
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"Just Walkin'" <kensh...@comcast.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167262461.648150.177520@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 

 

> Beppe,
> Please allow me to try to explain what everyone else is saying. On the
> surface it seems simple; one layer down, semantics. At the core: A very
> important theological question that begs our attention.
> Presuming that God has at times both answered prayers and permitted
> miracles to happen, and that in this way he has helped a great many
> people, why of all the great and many things that he has done has he
> not allowed one instance of a limb growing back at any time in history?
> Yea, to the believer, he has healed cancer, given sight to the blind,
> enabled the cripple to walk, brought people back from the dead and
> remedied about every affliction known to our kind, why has bringing new
> limbs to anyone one thing that he has never done?
> Do you have an answer for this?

 
Yes, I have, my friend.
And I take advantage of your kind post to thank you for the serious way of
putting down the question one more time.
But yes, I have an answer and yes, I have to repeat one more time I have
already stated what the answer is
(what I *think* (it goes without saying) the answer is, since I, as all
believers, live in hope and doubt at the same time)
Ok, here we go again:
No limb has ever been *recreated* because God is no magician and no
comedian:
God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?) setting in which there
is no room for *impossible* things.
The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live in a material world
in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what science (which, for a
believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
The same reason why can't we ask God not to grow old, so as to say.
Otherwise we could more simply (and more logically) wonder why God does not
heal the whole world *tout court*, not just amputees but also wars, down
syndromes and age.
 

You kindly said *allow me to try to explain*
I'll tell you, with the same kindness, to re-read again what I wrote in my
first *serious* post on the subject.
You're entitled to disagree and // or think that what I believe sounds false
to you.
But you won't tell me it's not *an* answer.
*My* answer, of course, but still an acceptable and respectable answer.
Here it was:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.dylan/msg/ba47d9bc8c237303?as_umsg­id=45902b36$0$4252$4fafb...@reader1.news.tin.it
(hope it's a valid link)
:-)
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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59
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 01:39
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?) setting in which there
> is no room for *impossible* things.
> The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live in a material world
> in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
> A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
> A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what science (which, for a
> believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
> No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.

 
Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an interventionist God.
 
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60
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 01:45
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:rnEkh.535671$R63.42966@pd7urf1no...
 

 

>> God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?) setting in which
>> there is no room for *impossible* things.
>> The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live in a material
>> world in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
>> A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
>> A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what science (which, for a
>> believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
>> No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
 

> Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an interventionist God.

 

well, finally a clever objection!
:-D
Actually I only (very) partially do.
Surely I don't believe in the anthropomorphic shape an intervening God would
assume.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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67
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 11:09
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:yyHkh.530887$5R2.99644@pd7urf3no...
 

 

>>> Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an interventionist God.
 

>> Actually I only (very) partially do.
>> Surely I don't believe in the anthropomorphic shape an intervening God
>> would assume.
 

> So you believe in a shapeless, interventionist god that doesn't violate
> the laws of physics. Can this god do anything at all useful for us in our
> lifetimes?

 

Ok, Don, I think a clever argument has been set, now.
:-)
 

Yes, I believe in a God that does NOT violate the laws of physics.
I call Him, go figure, a *scientific God*.
I think God exists because he *must* exist, when all is said and done.
And, no, I don't think he can do anything *useful* for us, provided *useful*
means acquiring richness, using Him as a bancomat of wishes or an online
girl call center.
This world, at the end of the day, is the Kingdom of Evil; it has always
been (we dont' know why) since the day of the apple.
And *My Kingdom is not of this world* (He said); do not forget this.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

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69
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 15:24
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> Yes, I believe in a God that does NOT violate the laws of physics.
> I call Him, go figure, a *scientific God*.
> I think God exists because he *must* exist, when all is said and done.
> And, no, I don't think he can do anything *useful* for us, provided *useful*
> means acquiring richness, using Him as a bancomat of wishes or an online
> girl call center.
> This world, at the end of the day, is the Kingdom of Evil; it has always
> been (we dont' know why) since the day of the apple.
> And *My Kingdom is not of this world* (He said); do not forget this.

 
Well, beppe, it shouldn't be too hard to straighten out all the crazy
contradictions in your stated beliefs here.
 

Isn't god's will supposed to be carried out on earth as it is in heaven?
Can't this god deliver us from evil, or does that just happen after we
die? What does this god who must exist actually do? Does he just sit
back and watch people die from wars and disease and traffic accidents?
I'm not suggesting that god give people winning lottery tickets, but it
seems to me that if you're going to actually believe in a god, it should
be a god that has some powers to do some good on the planet.
 

And I must say, I take offense at you calling the world the Kingdom of
Evil. That's precisely the kind of thinking that allows religious people
to ignore all the problems in the world and tell people to wait until
they die for a decent life. I would say that the world isn't evil, but
that kind of thinking is evil.
 

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70
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 15:57
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:SsQkh.536994$R63.372932@pd7urf1no...
 

 

> Well, beppe, it shouldn't be too hard to straighten out all the crazy
> contradictions in your stated beliefs here.

 
Ok, have a go!
 

 

> Isn't god's will supposed to be carried out on earth as it is in heaven?

 
No, not exactly.
 

 

> Can't this god deliver us from evil,

 
No, if you say he *can't*.
He *could* but he *can't*
( ........can he create a stone....)
:-)
 

or does that just happen after we
 

 

> die?

 
Yes
(more or less so....)
 

 

>What does this god who must exist actually do?

 
he doesn't *do* nothing, actually.
God is (basically) transcendent.
 

Does he just sit
 

 

> back and watch people die from wars and disease and traffic accidents?

 
Even less than this.
He has created the world and free will.
He doesnt' need to either sit or watch.
 

 

> I'm not suggesting that god give people winning lottery tickets, but it
> seems to me that if you're going to actually believe in a god, it should
> be a god that has some powers to do some good on the planet.

 
Why so?
(I've already told you, my God is not a MiracleMat God)
 

 

> And I must say, I take offense at you calling the world the Kingdom of
> Evil.

 
I'm sorry you take offense.
Still that's waht I think.
And I always say what I think when I speak with friends.
 

That's precisely the kind of thinking that allows religious people
 

 

> to ignore all the problems in the world and tell people to wait until they
> die for a decent life.

 
Not me, but actually there are lots of believers who act like that
 

I would say that the world isn't evil, but
 

 

> that kind of thinking is evil.

 
I'll take that.
I won't take offense
:-)
 

Don,
by the way.
Among the several questions you left unaswered in spite of what you say
(there were 12, I counted them)
.-)))
there's only one which I think I'd rather rephrase because I'm too curious
to have YOUR answer:
here it is (here it was, it was the last one)
***************************************************************************­*****
If you were so convinced of the non-existence of a god or, at least, of the
absurdity of the God I believe in,
why would you spend so much time and kilobytes trying to convert me?
***************************************************************************­*****
PS
The answer:
*I want to straighten you out* is not valid.
Unless you are in a position to demonstrate you spend the same amount of
time in, say, Britney Spears's NG to tell her fans she's phoney.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

 

76
Da: really real - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 19:05
Email: really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
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> May I suggest more public places full of delusional people like we believers
> all are?

 
You know what I've noticed, beppe, is that many christians have a
persecution complex. You keep asking why I am trying to convert you. I
don't think I am trying to convert you. I'm just trying to stand up for
the truth.
 

When you utter the prayer, in rmd, that God bless James Brown's soul for
eternity, aren't you trying to convert those that don't believe in God
or in the Afterlife?
 

You don't see me posting the wish that James Brown's body rot and get
recycled, and the spark of life that animated him in his time on earth
be now turned off, into an endless sleep. If I did post that, would I be
attacking your faith?
 

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77
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Gio 28 Dic 2006 19:28
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"really real" <reallyr...@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:PHTkh.531749$5R2.210720@pd7urf3no...
 

 

>> May I suggest more public places full of delusional people like we
>> believers all are?
 

> You know what I've noticed, beppe, is that many christians have a
> persecution complex.

 

I was ironic.
I've know what having a complex means, trust me, but it was no persecution
complex.
:-)
 

You keep asking why I am trying to convert you.
 

Only partially so.
The question of *why are you trying to convert me?*
was not // is not centered on the *converting issue*; it's mostly centered
on the *why*, as I have explained ad nauseam.
Have you wondered why I don't feel the urge to do the same with you?
Asking *why are you trying to convert me?* is another way to ask
*do you realize you're fighting your fears, not my faith*?
 

But I know you know.
:-)
 

When you utter the prayer, in rmd, that God bless James Brown's soul for
eternity, aren't you trying to convert those that don't believe in God
or in the Afterlife?
 

ABSOLUTELY NOT.
THE MOST DEFINITE, TOTAL, COMPLETE AND THE LOUDEST *NO* IS THE ANSWER TO
THIS QUESTION.
I'm not interesting in converting anyone.
Should I be, I'd start with my brothers and sisters.
But I believe they'll reach slavation much before I will.
 

 

> You don't see me posting the wish that James Brown's body rot and get
> recycled, and the spark of life that animated him in his time on earth be
> now turned off, into an endless sleep. If I did post that, would I be
> attacking your faith?

 
Not at all.
Same way my posts do not attack anyone else's faith.
Those who feel a need to react against peaceful religious attitudes do so
(mostly) because // if they feel guilty.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com

Just Walkin' - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 29 Dic 2006 01:27
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- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

Beppe,
 

Thank you for your very long and reassuring message, but as an answer,
it only raises more questions.
 

As you know, there are species in this world that can regenerate body
parts: certain lizards, amphibians, crustaceans have been observed to
have this ability.
 

Also, as pointed out by brethren in this group, scientists are working
all the time to unlock this mystery of nature (or God's handiwork, if
you believe) for the good of people so affected.
 

Since the phenomena already occurs in nature and our medical
understanding and technology is increasing exponentially with each
passing year, it may only be a matter of time before our species
achieves this ability. In fact, I'd say that the probability is
probably quite high.
 

How then do you (would you) explain God's inability or refusal to do
this for anyone, least of all his most loyal and fervent subjects, in
the face of such mortal achievement?
 

Are there any other examples in history that resemble this line of
inquiry? How have they been resolved? Please only answer this after you
respond to the primary question!
 

Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 29 Dic 2006 17:17
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
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"Just Walkin'" <kensh...@comcast.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167352044.153097.55400@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
 

 

> Beppe,
> Thank you for your very long and reassuring message, but as an answer,
> it only raises more questions.

 
:-)
That's in the nature of religion.
 

 

> As you know,

 
*******************************
In fact, I'd say that the probability is
 
> probably quite high.

 
*************CUT************************
 
> How then do you

 
************CUT******************
 Please only answer this after you
 

 

> respond to the primary question!

 
:-)))
Ok, I'll try!!!
But I'm afraid I've got no scientific answer or, at least, no answer of the
kind you demand.
I believe in a *scientific* God but my faith is totally intuitive.
 

Your precise questions are:
Q 1:How then do you (would you) explain God's inability or refusal to do
this for anyone?
Q 2:Are there any other examples in history that resemble this line of
 

> inquiry?

 
Q 2:How have they been resolved?
 

And I have no *technical* answers to none, my friend.
I'm sure in the past there were many diseases comparable to a loss of a limb
nowadays (incurable, that is)
For example before the advent of pennicilin I think some diseases were
definitely incurable.
For example one day we might discover that aging is a (sort of) disease and
cure it.
Would then be logical to say today *God hates the old people because he
never gets them to be young again?*
Why not, my god, one day we'll be able to avoid growing old, can't you grant
that in advance to me right now?
Even death, someday, will be postponed or even defeated fair and square,  I
hear someone say.
But nowadays it would be nonsensical to say
*God hates the parents of dead children*
or
*God hates humanity because we die*, wouldn't it?
We accept death as ineluctable the same way we, nowadays, accept
amputatations as incurable.
We don't ask God to let one of our relatives live to 300 years, to cure a
Down kid, to make Julius Caesar reapper or to delete the Holocaust, do we?
We ask God to give us strenght, to save our dearest souls but we don't ask
Him to send them back to earth, do we?
That would belong to the field of magic.
 

But I'm sure that won't satisfy your questions.
And I know you won't be satisfied with precise answers like:
A 1: God doesn't refuse anything, there are simply things that happen
(healings) and that don't happen (resurrections), both in the lives of
believers and in the lives of non-believers
A 2: Yes, all things that seemed to be *impossible* at a given time in the
past
A 3: They haven't; they will, though: becoming *possible* and entering the
realm of possibilities
 

And I won't tell you actually, these are my answers.
Because what I know is NOT why God doesn't heal the amputees (He actually
doesn't!).
What my heart feels is that asking such a question is culturally dishonest
(as I have widely explained) unless we wonder also why God doesn't revive
dead children and // or why He makes us grow old.
And unless we accept, in the end, that God's acts (the acts of God we grasp)
occur only (it couldn't be any different) into the realm of human
possibilities.
What I know (what my heart feels) is that God exists, he doesn't act
miracles on demand, he doesn't act beyond human ways, he asks us to live our
life and to be satisfied with our lot, even when it's not satisfactory.
And that prayers are immensely useful to grant the world a better syntony
with Him (with the universe, if you prefer).
Call it looking for the wavlenght, if you like.
You ask and, as time runs by, you know what to ask.
You know what to ask and you get exactly what you want, when you catch the
right wavelenght.
But I don't know HOW and WHY this happens.
As much as I pray everyday for peace because I know I have to, I feel I want
to but I'm SURE wars will never end.
 

But you don't want to hear all that again.
:-)
 

Thank you for your kindness.
God bless you.
 

--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
 

97
Da: Just Walkin' - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 29 Dic 2006 21:50
Email: "Just Walkin'" <kensh...@comcast.net>
Gruppi: rec.music.dylan
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Beppe,
 

I truly appreciate the thoroughness of your reply. Though you haven't
swayed me with your argument, I am impressed with your sincerity.
 

But it has become apparent that there are three major threads of debate
 

that run through this discussion. They are:
 

1) Whether God hates anyone.
In the Bible, God tells the Israelites not to celebrate the drowning
of Pharoah's army because they are his children too and he doesn't hate
 

his creations. The God of Abraham (and by extension, Ibrahim) is not a
hateful God, hence nor should we be as a species, if we are, as
believers contend, presumably created in his image.
 

2) Whether prayer works.
If prayer results in a desired objective, it is probably more a matter
of coincidence rather than divine intervention as prayer seems to be
prove more theraputic for the practitioner than results-oriented.
Remember: God never said that he helps those who help themselves, a
major impetus of prayer in this young new century. Perhaps all western
thought concerning the nature and value of prayer has been corrupted
over the years.
 

3) Why prayer doesn't work.
When someone prays for strength to achieve a desired outcome, it may be
 

enough to permit the summoning of strength to achieve the objective if
such achievement is possible under natural law. If someone prays for
the outcome itself, its achievement is most likely independent of the
prayer.
 

What do you think Beppe? Are we close? Can we concur?
 

- Mostra testo tra virgolette -

 

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98
Da: beppe - vedi profilo
Data: Ven 29 Dic 2006 22:05
Email: "beppe" <giuseppegaze...@tin.it>
Gruppi: rec.music.dylan
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"Just Walkin'" <kensh...@comcast.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167425250.645263.279510@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
 

 

> Beppe,
> 1) Whether God hates anyone.
 

> 2) Whether prayer works.
 

> 3) Why prayer doesn't work.
 

> What do you think Beppe? Are we close? Can we concur?

 

:-)))
Surely we are close.
 

Especially on point 3.
 

About point 1, I agree on the substance of the point you make, even though I
must say the God of the Old Testament does somehow look
like a *bad* God, sometimes vindicative, other times unmerciful.
That's why, should they be forced to pick up just one book, most of the
Catholics would choose the Gospel over the Old Testament any day.
Not me, but this would bring us too far or, at least, to a different
direction.
 

Point 2 remains what divides us (but it's not a problem, isn't it') :-)
Should I be allowed to rephrase it, I'd say:
 

 

> If prayer results in a desired objective, it is a matter
> of coincidence with the divine plan and not a matter of how much one
> deserves the gift he's praying for.
> Prayer is ulitmately meant to let the praying soul understand what the
> divine plan requires from him/her.

 
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com