Mail Me!!!
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http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
questions in America today, because this question lies at the
heart of
the American culture wars.
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should
worship God
as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in
our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on
the
money, pray in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution
from
every curriculum. We should focus our society on God and his
infallible
Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.
On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a
complete
illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. We
should
eliminate God from our society because God is meaningless.
Belief in God
is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads
a
significant portion of the population to be completely
delusional.
But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or
imaginary?
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century,
we
should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are
doing
when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to
understand the
true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't
God heal
amputees?"
Why won't God heal amputees?" may seem like an odd name for a
Web site.
The reason for choosing it is simple: this is one of the most
important
questions that we can ask about God.
The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a
fundamental
aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of
prayer
has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
Watch the video
To help you understand why this question is so important, let's
look at
an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one day,
and he
tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic, and
he
schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease.
Meanwhile, you
are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God day and
night
for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your doctor
examines you
again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God for
answering
your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that God
has
worked a miracle in your life.
The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the
surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to know
whether
God is playing a role or not when we pray?
Unless you take the time to intelligently analyze this situation,
it
looks ambiguous. God might have miraculously cured your disease,
as many
Christians believe. But God might also be imaginary, and the
chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured you. Or
your
body's immune system might have cured the cancer itself.
When your tumor dissappeared, in other words, it might simply
have been
a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your prayer
may have
had zero effect.
How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that
worked the
cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous
situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there
is no
ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the
prayer or not.
That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
Think about it this way. The Bible clearly promises that God
answers
prayers. For example, in Mark 11:24 Jesus says, "Therefore I
tell you,
whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received
it, and
it will be yours." And billions of Christians believe these
promises.
You can find thousands of books, magazine articles and Web sites
talking
about the power of prayer. According to believers, God is
answering
millions of their prayers every day.
So what should happen if we pray to God to restore amputated
limbs?
Clearly, if God is real, limbs should regenerate through prayer.
In
reality, they do not.
Why not? Because God is imaginary. Notice that there is zero
ambiguity
in this situation. There is only one way for a limb to
regenerate
through prayer: God must exist and God must answer prayers. What
we find
is that whenever we create a unambiguous situation like this and
look at
the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never "answers
prayers"
if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will approach this
issue
from several different angles in this book, but Chapters 5, 6, 7
and 8
are particularly important:
· Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?
· Chapter 6 - Why do you need health insurance?
· Chapter 7 - Why can't you move a mountain?
· Chapter 8 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
Watch the video
The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of
coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we
analyze God's
responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools, what we
find is
that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In
other words,
when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for
explaining any
situation, they are identical. For example, this article points
out:
One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published
earlier
this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did
not
reduce the major complications or death rate in patients
hospitalized
for heart treatments. [ref]
It also says:
A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in
2003 by
a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or
other
healing methods.
No valid scientific study has ever found any evidence that
prayer works.
See this page for details.
You can see the same effect in the following prayer. Let's
assume that
you are a true believer and you do believe that God cures cancer.
What
would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this
way:
Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the
universe, we
pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight.
We pray
in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew
7:7,
Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew
18:19
and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely
heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify
God and
help millions of people in remarkable ways. If God cures cancer,
then
this is an easy prayer for an omnipotent, all-loving God to
answer.
The fact is, what this prayer does is remove ambiguity. As soon
as we do
that, we see the true nature of "God." There is no way that a
coincidence can answer this prayer, and, sure enough, the prayer
goes
unanswered.
If you look at the data, you can see exactly what is happening
here:
· When we pray to God about any non-ambigous situation, God
never
answers the prayer.
· When we analyse any ambiguous prayer using statistical
tools, we find
zero effect from prayer.
In other words, every "answered prayer" truly is a coincidence,
nothing
more. "God" doesn't "answer prayers" at all. The belief in
prayer is
pure superstition. Non-ambiguous prayers (like those of amputees)
show
us, conclusively, that the whole idea that "God answers prayers"
is an
illusion created by human imagination.:
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really real wrote:
>
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
> questions in America today, because this question lies at
the heart of
> the American culture wars.
> If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we
should worship God
> as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in
> our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We
Trust" on the
> money, pray in our schools and eliminate the theory of
evolution from
> every curriculum. We should focus our society on God and
his infallible
> Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.
> On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a
complete
> illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless.
We should
> eliminate God from our society because God is meaningless.
Belief in God
> is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition
leads a
> significant portion of the population to be completely
delusional.
> But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real
or imaginary?
> Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st
century, we
> should take the time to look at some data. That is what we
are doing
> when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
> If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to
understand the
> true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why
won't God heal
> amputees?"
> Why won't God heal amputees?" may seem like an odd name
for a Web site.
> The reason for choosing it is simple: this is one of the
most important
> questions that we can ask about God.
> The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a
fundamental
> aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This
aspect of prayer
> has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
> Watch the video
> To help you understand why this question is so important,
let's look at
> an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one
day, and he
> tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic,
and he
> schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease.
Meanwhile, you
> are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God
day and night
> for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your
doctor examines you
> again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God
for answering
> your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that
God has
> worked a miracle in your life.
> The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the
> surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to
know whether
> God is playing a role or not when we pray?
> Unless you take the time to intelligently analyze this
situation, it
> looks ambiguous. God might have miraculously cured your
disease, as many
> Christians believe. But God might also be imaginary, and
the
> chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured
you. Or your
> body's immune system might have cured the cancer itself.
> When your tumor dissappeared, in other words, it might
simply have been
> a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your
prayer may have
> had zero effect.
> How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that
worked the
> cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a
non-ambiguous
> situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because
there is no
> ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering
the prayer or not.
> That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
> Think about it this way. The Bible clearly promises that
God answers
> prayers. For example, in Mark 11:24 Jesus says, "Therefore
I tell you,
> whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have
received it, and
> it will be yours." And billions of Christians believe
these promises.
> You can find thousands of books, magazine articles and Web
sites talking
> about the power of prayer. According to believers, God is
answering
> millions of their prayers every day.
> So what should happen if we pray to God to restore
amputated limbs?
> Clearly, if God is real, limbs should regenerate through
prayer. In
> reality, they do not.
> Why not? Because God is imaginary. Notice that there is
zero ambiguity
> in this situation. There is only one way for a limb to
regenerate
> through prayer: God must exist and God must answer
prayers. What we find
> is that whenever we create a unambiguous situation like
this and look at
> the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never
"answers prayers"
> if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will
approach this issue
> from several different angles in this book, but Chapters
5, 6, 7 and 8
> are particularly important:
> · Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?
> · Chapter 6 - Why do you need health insurance?
> · Chapter 7 - Why can't you move a mountain?
> · Chapter 8 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
> Watch the video
> The fact that prayers are never answered when the
possibility of
> coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we
analyze God's
> responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools,
what we find is
> that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer.
In other words,
> when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for
explaining any
> situation, they are identical. For example, this article
points out:
> One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet,
published earlier
> this month, found that the prayers of a distant
congregation did not
> reduce the major complications or death rate in patients
hospitalized
> for heart treatments. [ref]
> It also says:
> A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing,"
published in 2003 by
> a British researcher, found no significant effect for
prayer or other
> healing methods.
> No valid scientific study has ever found any evidence that
prayer works.
> See this page for details.
> You can see the same effect in the following prayer. Let's
assume that
> you are a true believer and you do believe that God cures
cancer. What
> would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God
in this way:
> Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of
the universe, we
> pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet
tonight. We pray
> in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in
Matthew 7:7,
> Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14,
Matthew 18:19
> and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
> We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this
completely
> heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will
glorify God and
> help millions of people in remarkable ways. If God cures
cancer, then
> this is an easy prayer for an omnipotent, all-loving God
to answer.
> The fact is, what this prayer does is remove ambiguity. As
soon as we do
> that, we see the true nature of "God." There is no way
that a
> coincidence can answer this prayer, and, sure enough, the
prayer goes
> unanswered.
> If you look at the data, you can see exactly what is
happening here:
> · When we pray to God about any non-ambigous situation,
God never
> answers the prayer.
> · When we analyse any ambiguous prayer using statistical
tools, we find
> zero effect from prayer.
> In other words, every "answered prayer" truly is a
coincidence, nothing
> more. "God" doesn't "answer prayers" at all. The belief in
prayer is
> pure superstition. Non-ambiguous prayers (like those of
amputees) show
> us, conclusively, that the whole idea that "God answers
prayers" is an
> illusion created by human imagination.:
I always wondered about that.....I sure am glad you cleared that
up for
me.
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"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote in message
news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
>
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
questions
> in America today, because this question lies at the heart
of the American
> culture wars.
> If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we
should worship God
> as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in our
> courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on
the money, pray
> in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution from
every
> curriculum.
Is Don Really Real? Rumor has it that he's Really Kiddin'
|
|
Bernie Woodham wrote:
> "really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote in message
>
news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
> >
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
> > Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
questions
> > in America today, because this question lies at the
heart of the American
> > culture wars.
> > If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we
should worship God
> > as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in our
> > courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust"
on the money, pray
> > in our schools and eliminate the theory of evolution
from every
> > curriculum.
> Is Don Really Real? Rumor has it that he's Really
Kiddin'
Six reasons why prayer doesnt always get answered the way you
want
1. personal sin or unconfessed sin - Psalm 66:18 - this blocks
many
prayers
2. It's Not God's will - 1 John 5:14
3. God says no - 2 Corinthians 12:7-10
4. God says later - last paragraph of Daniel 12
5. God says "make sure your motives are right - James 4:2-3
It does not automatically follow that if you dont get what you want,
then God doesn't exist. There are these and many other possible
reasons
why a prayer may not get answered to your satisfaction.
I recommend a good book like William Lane Craig's "Hard
Questions, Real
Answers." or if you are a brain, get a good book where an
atheist and a
theist debate the existence of God - honestly,these sorts of
posts will
not resolve the issue for all time.
An atheist said, "If there is a God, may he prove himself by
striking
me dead right now." Nothing happened. "You see, there is not
God." Another responded, "You've only proved that He is a
gracious God."
PM
|
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> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most
important
> questions in America today, because this question lies at
the heart of the
> American culture wars.
You're not American. Go to an anti-seal clubbing rally and mind
your own
fuckin' business, eh.
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> so why'd you go there?
Tim Horton's.
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badlands420 wrote: <J Buck wrote: so why'd you go there?>
<Tim Horton's.>
Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my state, almost a
year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to death,
then raped
her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a blizzard and
abandoned
the car on the interstate.
Though I'm sure their food is great.
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> Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my
state, almost a
> year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to
death, then raped
> her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a blizzard
and abandoned
> the car on the interstate.
That would never happen in a Tim Horton's in Canada.
|
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A partial answer lies in your name, really real.
Then take it from there and i will attempt to later come back,
hang on
this threat maybe. Not sure though. Depends on tens by tens of
other
things.
Let me get through the first question now. at least that . let me smash
or expand, your will is his.
You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round and
beyond :
> Is God real, or is he imaginary? I
Let ' s smash or expand or ..... you name it , you tell it as
is or as
imagined , reality has many heads, maybe too many indeed, but
still -
those are part of the One Source of Becoming
Now, go here :
Take away the comma between your questions and the scene starts
changin' ,
would you agree? then if you are still following me, take it
to another
direction. There is a small breeze to day, ever so light,
the thunder is also seen rollin' on the moutain
a blizzzzzzard zzzzzzzzooms through Colorado.
I'll try to access this juglgling thread at another time. Use
a bit too
much of the rational , with tongue in cheek , approach to hang
out too
long on it. The maze of the rational has been explored
sufficiently ,
for my taste. But then that's just me.
That's the way my wheel are built. The rational is a big wheel,
i like
those small wheels better. They can fit in more worlds. No so
cumbersome. Give me a chakra , reveal your sephira and I get
more
satisfaction.
But I will try, for the love of X, to attend to the rational
maze too.
for the love of X .
for God's sake, in service i can smash some of those structures,
open
the windows, get some fresh air in this hog eyed world. Did I
get the
hog right?
that's not matter greatly, does it ?
So bye for now and Happy Days,
Tif .8.
On Dec 22, 12:45 am, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca>
wrote:
>
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
> questions in America today, because this question lies at
the heart of
> the American culture wars.
> If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we
should worship God
> as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in
> our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We
Trust" on the
> money, pray in our schools and eliminate the theory of
evolution from
> every curriculum. We should focus our society on God and
his infallible
> Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.
> On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a
complete
> illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless.
We should
> eliminate God from our society because God is meaningless.
Belief in God
> is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition
leads a
> significant portion of the population to be completely
delusional.
> But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real
or imaginary?
> Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st
century, we
> should take the time to look at some data. That is what we
are doing
> when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
> If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to
understand the
> true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why
won't God heal
> amputees?"
> Why won't God heal amputees?" may seem like an odd name
for a Web site.
> The reason for choosing it is simple: this is one of the
most important
> questions that we can ask about God.
> The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a
fundamental
> aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This
aspect of prayer
> has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
> Watch the video
> To help you understand why this question is so important,
let's look at
> an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one
day, and he
> tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic,
and he
> schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease.
Meanwhile, you
> are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God
day and night
> for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your
doctor examines you
> again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God
for answering
> your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that
God has
> worked a miracle in your life.
> The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the
> surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to
know whether
> God is playing a role or not when we pray?
> Unless you take the time to intelligently analyze this
situation, it
> looks ambiguous. God might have miraculously cured your
disease, as many
> Christians believe. But God might also be imaginary, and
the
> chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured
you. Or your
> body's immune system might have cured the cancer itself.
> When your tumor dissappeared, in other words, it might
simply have been
> a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your
prayer may have
> had zero effect.
> How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that
worked the
> cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a
non-ambiguous
> situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because
there is no
> ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering
the prayer or not.
> That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
> Think about it this way. The Bible clearly promises that
God answers
> prayers. For example, in Mark 11:24 Jesus says, "Therefore
I tell you,
> whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have
received it, and
> it will be yours." And billions of Christians believe
these promises.
> You can find thousands of books, magazine articles and Web
sites talking
> about the power of prayer. According to believers, God is
answering
> millions of their prayers every day.
> So what should happen if we pray to God to restore
amputated limbs?
> Clearly, if God is real, limbs should regenerate through
prayer. In
> reality, they do not.
> Why not? Because God is imaginary. Notice that there is
zero ambiguity
> in this situation. There is only one way for a limb to
regenerate
> through prayer: God must exist and God must answer
prayers. What we find
> is that whenever we create a unambiguous situation like
this and look at
> the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never
"answers prayers"
> if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will
approach this issue
> from several different angles in this book, but Chapters
5, 6, 7 and 8
> are particularly important:
> · Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?
> · Chapter 6 - Why do you need health insurance?
> · Chapter 7 - Why can't you move a mountain?
> · Chapter 8 - Why do bad things happen to good
people?
> Watch the video
> The fact that prayers are never answered when the
possibility of
> coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we
analyze God's
> responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools,
what we find is
> that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer.
In other words,
> when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for
explaining any
> situation, they are identical. For example, this article
points out:
> One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet,
published earlier
> this month, found that the prayers of a distant
congregation did not
> reduce the major complications or death rate in patients
hospitalized
> for heart treatments. [ref]
> It also says:
> A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing,"
published in 2003 by
> a British researcher, found no significant effect for
prayer or other
> healing methods.
> No valid scientific study has ever found any evidence that
prayer works.
> See this page for details.
> You can see the same effect in the following prayer. Let's
assume that
> you are a true believer and you do believe that God cures
cancer. What
> would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God
in this way:
> Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of
the universe, we
> pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet
tonight. We pray
> in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in
Matthew 7:7,
> Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14,
Matthew 18:19
> and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
> We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this
completely
> heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will
glorify God and
> help millions of people in remarkable ways. If God cures
cancer, then
> this is an easy prayer for an omnipotent, all-loving God
to answer.
> The fact is, what this prayer does is remove ambiguity. As
soon as we do
> that, we see the true nature of "God." There is no way
that a
> coincidence can answer this prayer, and, sure enough, the
prayer goes
> unanswered.
> If you look at the data, you can see exactly what is
happening here:
> · When we pray to God about any non-ambigous
situation, God never
> answers the prayer.
> · When we analyse any ambiguous prayer using
statistical tools, we find
> zero effect from prayer.
> In other words, every "answered prayer" truly is a
coincidence, nothing
> more. "God" doesn't "answer prayers" at all. The belief in
prayer is
> pure superstition. Non-ambiguous prayers (like those of
amputees) show
> us, conclusively, that the whole idea that "God answers
prayers" is an
> illusion created by human imagination.:
|
|
|
|
really real wrote:
>
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
> Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important
> questions in America today, because this question lies at
the heart of
> the American culture wars.
> If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we
should worship God
> as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten
Commandments in
> our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We
Trust" on the
> money, pray in our schools and eliminate the theory of
evolution from
> every curriculum. We should focus our society on God and
his infallible
> Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.
> On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a
complete
> illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless.
We should
> eliminate God from our society because God is meaningless.
Belief in God
> is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition
leads a
> significant portion of the population to be completely
delusional.
> But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real
or imaginary?
> Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st
century, we
> should take the time to look at some data. That is what we
are doing
> when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
> If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to
understand the
> true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why
won't God heal
> amputees?"
> Why won't God heal amputees?" may seem like an odd name
for a Web site.
> The reason for choosing it is simple: this is one of the
most important
> questions that we can ask about God.
> The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into a
fundamental
> aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This
aspect of prayer
> has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
> Watch the video
> To help you understand why this question is so important,
let's look at
> an example. Let's imagine that you visit your doctor one
day, and he
> tells you that you have cancer. Your doctor is optimistic,
and he
> schedules surgery and chemotherapy to treat your disease.
Meanwhile, you
> are terrified. You don't want to die, so you pray to God
day and night
> for a cure. The surgery is successful, and when your
doctor examines you
> again six months later the cancer is gone. You praise God
for answering
> your prayers. You totally believe with all your heart that
God has
> worked a miracle in your life.
> The obvious question to ask is: What cured you? Was it the
> surgery/chemotherapy, or was it God? Is there any way to
know whether
> God is playing a role or not when we pray?
> Unless you take the time to intelligently analyze this
situation, it
> looks ambiguous. God might have miraculously cured your
disease, as many
> Christians believe. But God might also be imaginary, and
the
> chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured
you. Or your
> body's immune system might have cured the cancer itself.
> When your tumor dissappeared, in other words, it might
simply have been
> a complete coincidence that you happened to pray. Your
prayer may have
> had zero effect.
> How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that
worked the
> cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a
non-ambiguous
> situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because
there is no
> ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering
the prayer or not.
> That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
> Think about it this way. The Bible clearly promises that
God answers
> prayers. For example, in Mark 11:24 Jesus says, "Therefore
I tell you,
> whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have
received it, and
> it will be yours." And billions of Christians believe
these promises.
> You can find thousands of books, magazine articles and Web
sites talking
> about the power of prayer. According to believers, God is
answering
> millions of their prayers every day.
> So what should happen if we pray to God to restore
amputated limbs?
> Clearly, if God is real, limbs should regenerate through
prayer. In
> reality, they do not.
> Why not? Because God is imaginary. Notice that there is
zero ambiguity
> in this situation. There is only one way for a limb to
regenerate
> through prayer: God must exist and God must answer
prayers. What we find
> is that whenever we create a unambiguous situation like
this and look at
> the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never
"answers prayers"
> if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will
approach this issue
> from several different angles in this book, but Chapters
5, 6, 7 and 8
> are particularly important:
> · Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?
> · Chapter 6 - Why do you need health insurance?
> · Chapter 7 - Why can't you move a mountain?
> · Chapter 8 - Why do bad things happen to good people?
> Watch the video
> The fact that prayers are never answered when the
possibility of
> coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we
analyze God's
> responses to ambiguous prayers using statistical tools,
what we find is
> that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer.
In other words,
> when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for
explaining any
> situation, they are identical. For example, this article
points out:
> One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet,
published earlier
> this month, found that the prayers of a distant
congregation did not
> reduce the major complications or death rate in patients
hospitalized
> for heart treatments. [ref]
> It also says:
> A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing,"
published in 2003 by
> a British researcher, found no significant effect for
prayer or other
> healing methods.
> No valid scientific study has ever found any evidence that
prayer works.
> See this page for details.
> You can see the same effect in the following prayer. Let's
assume that
> you are a true believer and you do believe that God cures
cancer. What
> would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God
in this way:
> Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of
the universe, we
> pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet
tonight. We pray
> in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in
Matthew 7:7,
> Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14,
Matthew 18:19
> and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
> We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this
completely
> heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will
glorify God and
> help millions of people in remarkable ways. If God cures
cancer, then
> this is an easy prayer for an omnipotent, all-loving God
to answer.
> The fact is, what this prayer does is remove ambiguity. As
soon as we do
> that, we see the true nature of "God." There is no way
that a
> coincidence can answer this prayer, and, sure enough, the
prayer goes
> unanswered.
> If you look at the data, you can see exactly what is
happening here:
> · When we pray to God about any non-ambigous situation,
God never
> answers the prayer.
> · When we analyse any ambiguous prayer using statistical
tools, we find
> zero effect from prayer.
> In other words, every "answered prayer" truly is a
coincidence, nothing
> more. "God" doesn't "answer prayers" at all. The belief in
prayer is
> pure superstition. Non-ambiguous prayers (like those of
amputees) show
> us, conclusively, that the whole idea that "God answers
prayers" is an
> illusion created by human imagination.:
Ah, the mystery of suffering. The big one!
Here are some thoughts on the subject:
There is nothing in all of life that tests faith more than
suffering -
both on the part of the one who suffers and on the part of those
who
must watch a loved one suffer.
There is always the tendency to cry out, "Why me, Lord?"
There is
always the temptation to do as Job's wife suggested - to curse
God and
die (Job 2:9).
Suffering is paradoxical. It has a way of making or breaking
us. It can
convert a person into a bitter, depressed and vengeful wretch
who
spends his time shaking his fist at God. Or, it can have the
opposite
effect; it can draw a person deeper into faith.
The response depends upon the quality of one's faith. As
Billy Graham
has often put it, "The same sun that melts the butter hardens
the
clay."
The Example of Job
Why must the righteous suffer? It is a difficult question.
The Bible is
full of many examples of righteous people who suffered mightily.
Ezekiel says that Job was one of the three most righteous men
who ever
lived. Yet, who has ever suffered as Job did?
Job's incredible suffering was aggravated by his so-called
friends who
came to him and blamed it all on his sins. Their accusations
were
unjustified, for the very first verse of Job says he was
"blameless,
upright, and a God-fearing man."
Unfortunately, the friends of Job are alive and well today,
anxious to
blame all our misfortunes - all our suffering - upon our
personal sins.
Later, another friend of Job gave him a partially correct
answer to the
reason for his suffering. He said it was for the purpose of
refining
Job in righteousness: a "partially correct answer" because the
Bible
teaches that suffering can refine us spiritually if our hearts
are
truly yielded to God.
Consider these words of Paul, another righteous man, who
suffered
mightily:
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace
with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have
obtained our
introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we
exult
in hope of the glory of God.
"And not only this, but we also exult in our sufferings,
knowing that
suffering brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven
character; and proven character, hope . . ." (Romans 5:1-4)
Job suffered that he might be refined in righteousness. But
there was
another, more important and ultimate reason for his suffering.
As Job continued to cry out, "Why me, Lord?" the Lord finally
appeared
to him and responded to his ...
leggi tutto
|
|
> You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round and
beyond :
>> Is God real, or is he imaginary? I
No, actually I didn't do that. I posted the website that asked
that,
after suggesting that people don't go there, and pasted some of
the text
that was at that website. Don't shoot the messenger.
|
|
On Dec 22, 10:06 pm, really real <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote:
> > You asked, tongue in cheek, roll it in and out , round
and beyond :
> >> Is God real, or is he imaginary? INo, actually I didn't do that. I
posted the website that asked that,
> after suggesting that people don't go there, and pasted
some of the text
> that was at that website. Don't shoot the messenger.
Never was it my aim. Tif .
|
|
> Ah, the mystery of suffering. The big one!
No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big
one. The
blind can see, the lame can walk a cancer can go into
remission, all
thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine intervention. The
question
is why amputees have been singled out to never receive god's
grace in
this manner.
But the real question is, Jinx, what inspired you to write all this? It
must be the xmas season getting to you.
> Here are some thoughts on the subject:
> There is nothing in all of life that tests faith more than suffering
-
> both on the part of the one who suffers and on the part of
those who
> must watch a loved one suffer.
> There is always the tendency to cry out, "Why me,
Lord?" There is
> always the temptation to do as Job's wife suggested - to
curse God and
> die (Job 2:9).
> Suffering is paradoxical. It has a way of making or
breaking us. It can
> convert a person into a bitter, depressed and vengeful
wretch who
> spends his time shaking his fist at God. Or, it can have
the opposite
> effect; it can draw a person deeper into faith.
> The response depends upon the quality of one's faith.
As Billy Graham
> has often put it, "The same sun that melts the butter
hardens the
> clay."
> The Example of Job
> Why must the righteous suffer? It is a difficult
question. The Bible is
> full of many examples of righteous people who suffered
mightily.
> Ezekiel says that Job was one of the three most righteous
men who ever
> lived. Yet, who has ever suffered as Job did?
> Job's incredible suffering was aggravated by his
so-called friends who
> came to him and blamed it all on his sins. Their
accusations were
> unjustified, for the very first verse of Job says he was
"blameless,
> upright, and a God-fearing man."
> Unfortunately, the friends of Job are alive and well
today, anxious to
> blame all our misfortunes - all our suffering - upon our
personal sins.
> Later, another friend of Job gave him a partially
correct answer to the
> reason for his suffering. He said it was for the purpose
of refining
> Job in righteousness: a "partially correct answer" because
the Bible
> teaches that suffering can refine us spiritually if our
hearts are
> truly yielded to God.
> Consider these words of Paul, another righteous man,
who suffered
> mightily:
> "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have
peace with God
> through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have
obtained our
> introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand;
and we exult
> in hope of the glory of God.
> "And not only this, but we also exult in our
sufferings, knowing that
> suffering brings about perseverance; and perseverance,
proven
> character; and proven character, hope . . ." (Romans
5:1-4)
> Job suffered that he might be refined in righteousness.
But there was
> another, more important and ultimate reason for his
suffering.
> As Job continued to cry out, "Why me, Lord?" the Lord
finally appeared
> to him and responded to his question with a long series of
questions:
> "Where were you when I created the heavens and the earth?"
"Where were
> you when I spoke the lion into existence?" "Where were you
when I hung
> the stars in space and gave them names?" (See Job 38-41.)
> In short, the Lord was saying, "Who are you to question
Me?"
> Other Biblical Examples
> God never answers the question, "Why me, Lord?"
Instead, He calls upon
> the questioner to lean on his faith and trust that God
knows best and
> that all things work together for good for those who know
the Lord.
> Thus, when Habakkuk cried out, "Why me, Lord?" The Lord
answered, "The
> righteous shall live by faith" (Hab. 2:4).
> When Paul cried out, "Why me, Lord?" The Lord answered,
"My grace is
> sufficient for you" (2 Cor. 12:9).
> Those are tough answers. They call for a tough faith.
> God's Promise
> God never promises that the righteous will not suffer.
But what He does
> promise regarding suffering is that He will walk through
the suffering
> with us and give us the grace and strength to deal with it
> victoriously. In Psalm 23 He says: "I will walk with you
through the
> valley of the shadow of death." In Isaiah 43 He says: "I
will pass with
> you through the high waters and will walk with you through
the fire."'
> Paul, speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus, said in
Romans 8:18: "I
> consider that the sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be
> compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us."
> "But all that sufferin' was not to be compared
> With the glory that is to be."
> (Bob Dylan - In The Summertime)
> Mr Jinx
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote in message
news:4qJih.506903$1T2.296453@pd7urf2no...
>> Bad word association for me. In the northern part of my
state, almost a
>> year ago, a Tim Horton employee beat his supervisor to
death, then raped
>> her and stuffed her in a car trunk. Took off in a
blizzard and abandoned
>> the car on the interstate.
> That would never happen in a Tim Horton's in Canada.
No. In Canada the killer would have ground her up and served her
as a
special dish.
http://www.kndo.com/Global/story.asp?S=5789999&nav=menu484_2_8
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote in message
news:cBUih.511656$5R2.418401@pd7urf3no...
>> Ah, the mystery of suffering. The big one!
> No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big one.
The
> blind can see, the lame can walk a cancer can go into
remission, all
> thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine
intervention. The question
> is why amputees have been singled out to never receive
god's grace in this
> manner.
Prosthetics.
|
|
> Prosthetics.
I see your point. God's blocking of the amputees' wishes is a
way of
making people evolve the technology of prosthetics that work as
well as
human limbs. To do this, people have to emulate the creator,
thus
making humanity more god-like.
The unhealed amputees are playing a crucial role in god's design.
|
|
I had a friend who lost his leg during a solar eclipse, and when
he got back
home he was surprised with one of them there Honey Baked Hams.
"My prayers
have been answered!" he exclaimed. "What?" I said with a
puzzled tone, "You
mean to stand there and tell me that you've been praying for a
ham instead
of praying for your leg to grow back on?" "Well," he said, "I
was praying
for some good sex, some good friends, and some good food. I got
screwed
real hard by the hospital, now I'm here with my good friends and
there's of
good food, so it looks like my prayers have all been answered."
|
|
really real wrote:
> > Ah, the mystery of suffering. The big one!
> No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big one.
The
> blind can see, the lame can walk a cancer can go into
remission, all
> thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine
intervention. The question
> is why amputees have been singled out to never receive
god's grace in
> this manner.
> But the real question is, Jinx, what inspired you to
write all this? It
> must be the xmas season getting to you.
Don't shoot the messenger. I just copied it off a web site.
Thought I'd post it here because this amputee question of yours seems
to have people stumped and rather than leave them without a leg
to
stand on I thought I'd hop into the debate.
It's important not to sentimentalize. Amputees can be
difficult people,
too. Just look at Heather Mills. Surely a test sent to St.
Paul.
Mr Jinx
|
|
Mr Jinx wrote:
> really real wrote:
> > > Ah, the mystery of suffering. The big one!
> > No, no, it's the mystery of selective suffering that is the big
one. The
> > blind can see, the lame can walk a cancer can go into
remission, all
> > thanks to the power of prayer and gods divine
intervention. The question
> > is why amputees have been singled out to never receive
god's grace in
> > this manner.
> > But the real question is, Jinx, what inspired you to
write all this? It
> > must be the xmas season getting to you.
> Don't shoot the messenger. I just copied it off a web
site.
> Thought I'd post it here because this amputee question
of yours seems
> to have people stumped and rather than leave them without
a leg to
> stand on I thought I'd hop into the debate.
> It's important not to sentimentalize. Amputees can be
difficult people,
> too. Just look at Heather Mills. Surely a test sent to
St. Paul.
> Mr Jinx
Good to see you going out on a limb here, Mr. Jinx. I'd give an
arm and
a leg to be able to write as well as you do. ;-x
|
|
|
|
Rib O'flavin wrote:
> I had a friend who lost his leg during a solar eclipse,
and when he got back
> home he was surprised with one of them there Honey Baked
Hams. "My prayers
> have been answered!" he exclaimed. "What?" I said with a
puzzled tone, "You
> mean to stand there and tell me that you've been praying
for a ham instead
> of praying for your leg to grow back on?" "Well," he
said, "I was praying
> for some good sex, some good friends, and some good food.
I got screwed
> real hard by the hospital, now I'm here with my good
friends and there's of
> good food, so it looks like my prayers have all been
answered."
About 20 years ago I had the great blessing of being on crutches
during
the holiday season in an overwhelmingly Christian community. Of
course
the greatest blessing was that I was healing from surgery and I
knew
that I was going to get well; in about 8 weeks I would walk
unaided
again. Nonetheless, it sensitized me to the frustration felt by
those
who have never been able to walk or may never be able to walk
again. A
great lesson indeed.
But the greatest lesson was learning about this troubled species of
ours. Despite the time of year and the professed beliefs of the
multitudes, over 60% of the shoppers at the mall had no problem
bowling
me over to get to the sale tables ahead of me. Make that 70% if
you
include folks who let doors close in my face. Even at holiday
pageants
I was invisible. Another 20% would tell their children, "Don't
stare at
the man with crutches!" stripping me even of my humanity before
their
children's eyes.
Of course I did enjoy the compassion and brotherly/sisterly
spirit of
that 10% who still seemed connected to their own humanity. They
opened
doors, helped me with my packages, even helped make way through
the
crowds. I never asked about their faith but didn't have to; it
was
obvious from their kind and gentle ways that their's rose far,
far
above that of those who actively profess. God NEVER said that he
would
help those who help themselves; he told us to help each other.
Great blessings, great lessons come to those with eyes and
ears (and
maybe a crippled paw) this season. But for the grace of the
almighty,
there go I.
Two years later I got together with some friends and launched
a
homeless shelter for married couples. But that, my brothers and
sisters, is another story.
'Tis always the season of grace, whatever stories of the
cosmos you
believe. How have you shown yours lately?
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:hLzih.509138$5R2.60747@pd7urf3no...
Don,
please tell me.
Is this a joke or is this for real?
I've been reading and re-reading this for a week now and I can't
get over
it.
On one side I can't believe someone can be so naive and
disingenuous to
write such childish stuff, on the other hand I've got a hunch
some branches
of fundamentalist atheists might stretch so far and write crap
like this.
But I dont' believe a clever guy like you may fall head and feet
into it so
easily.
So, before posting what my objections to these comedians would
be (provided
they were, instead, serious) could you please tell me if you
(they) are
joking?
Thanks!
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> really real
> please tell me.
> Is this a joke or is this for real?
Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets. What
whywontgodhealamputees.com has done is prove the non-existence
of an
interventionist god in a most astute way.
The idea that amputees never have their limbs grow back is something
I'd
never thought of before, but now I see it is a fundamental proof
that
god never answers prayers. Imagine, all these amputees praying
in vain
that god somehow regrow their lost arms or legs. Who wouldn't
pray if
they suffered an amputeeing? Yet in all human history there's
never
been an amputee in human history who's had his limb grow back.
So, I
don't think its a joke when they say that that the most
important
question arising from the bible is why won't god heal amputees?
> I've been reading and re-reading this for a week now and I
can't get over
> it.
> On one side I can't believe someone can be so naive and
disingenuous to
> write such childish stuff, on the other hand I've got a
hunch some branches
> of fundamentalist atheists might stretch so far and write
crap like this.
> But I dont' believe a clever guy like you may fall head
and feet into it so
> easily.
> So, before posting what my objections to these comedians
would be (provided
> they were, instead, serious) could you please tell me if
you (they) are
> joking?
> Thanks!
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
wrote in message
news:A3Jjh.526039$R63.80881@pd7urf1no...
> > really real
> > please tell me.
> > Is this a joke or is this for real?
> Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets. What
> whywontgodhealamputees.com has done is prove the
non-existence of an
> interventionist god in a most astute way.
> The idea that amputees never have their limbs grow back
is something I'd
> never thought of before, but now I see it is a fundamental
proof that
> god never answers prayers. Imagine, all these amputees
praying in vain
> that god somehow regrow their lost arms or legs. Who
wouldn't pray if
> they suffered an amputeeing? Yet in all human history
there's never
> been an amputee in human history who's had his limb grow
back. So, I
> don't think its a joke when they say that that the most
important
> question arising from the bible is why won't god heal
amputees?
> > I've been reading and re-reading this for a week now
and I can't get
over
> > it.
> > On one side I can't believe someone can be so naive and
disingenuous to
> > write such childish stuff, on the other hand I've got a
hunch some
branches
> > of fundamentalist atheists might stretch so far and
write crap like
this.
> > But I dont' believe a clever guy like you may fall head
and feet into it
so
> > easily.
> > So, before posting what my objections to these comedians
would be
(provided
> > they were, instead, serious) could you please tell me if
you (they) are
> > joking?
> > Thanks!
I haven't gone to the site but obvious everyone who wrote there
had God
answer "no" to their prayers.
I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am
curious if there
are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg. If
you went to
another healing site you might find some miracles there,
different answers
seem to always appear where you are looking.
|
|
> I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am
curious if there
> are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg.
If you went to
> another healing site you might find some miracles there,
different answers
> seem to always appear where you are looking.
I knew a guy once whose stigmata holes grew over and healed, but
that's
a different holiday.
|
|
On Dec 25, 9:49 pm, "Barbara" <barbarac ...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
a restoring arm or leg. If you went to
> another healing site you might find some miracles there,
different answers
> seem to always appear where you are looking.
BRAVO ! BRAVO !
( from Ol' Man Tif .)
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:A3Jjh.526039$R63.80881@pd7urf1no...
> > really real
>> please tell me.
>> Is this a joke or is this for real?
> Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets
************************************
I don't think its a joke when they say that that the most
important
> question arising from the bible is why won't god heal
amputees?
Ok, Don.
In a nutshell, then.
(we'll have time to get deeper, if you like....:-D...)
1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly
and
always (sic) ]
2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to be
fulfilled
3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have to ask
God, as
Pastor Marc has recently
pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking for
s.o. to die)
5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not
suppoed to hope
for
If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God you'll
be healed
If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up thus
they pray God
you will wake up.
If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets back
here, thus
nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them strength
and hope and
to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray for
them to come
back to life.
Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't heal
the amputees,
why not
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule out the
Holocaust?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset the
universe to
*Man = Good*?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make us all
young again?
9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not *hopeable*
( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just wanted
to make it
claer...:-)))
10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be, in the
end, unless
it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really mean
it!)
a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question; *Why does
God accept
evil*?
11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious (and
actually
unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know,
Christians believe
God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept it.
re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but he
won't because he
will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
This is just to put it in a nutshell, my friend, as I said
above.
But let me tell you something:
Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time
desperately
clutching at straws to demosntrate the non-existence of God?
Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to
disrupting our
faith?
I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist NG!
What's your answer?
Very friendly
(merry Christmas agian)
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
"beppe" <giuseppegaze ...@tin.it>
wrote in message
news:45902b36$0$4252$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it...
> "really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:A3Jjh.526039$R63.80881@pd7urf1no...
>> > really real
>>> please tell me.
>>> Is this a joke or is this for real?
>> Beppe, this is as real as anything ever gets
> ************************************
> I don't think its a joke when they say that that the most
important
>> question arising from the bible is why won't god heal
amputees?
> Ok, Don.
> In a nutshell, then.
> (we'll have time to get deeper, if you like....:-D...)
Well, without trying to sound pompous or smartass, it seems to
me the only
thing that one should for Really Real pray about is for an
increase in
faith. Because, being a human being it is so difficult to
believe.
|
|
> Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time
desperately
> clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence of
God?
> Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying
to disrupting our
> faith?
It's all about believing in pie in the sky when you die. While
faith in
illusions can be very useful for people in desperate impossible
situations, when the general population believes in supernatural
redemption, then chores on earth just don't get done. Sure,
Christians
love to give to the poor on xmas, you don't see the church
trying to
redistribute the wealth of the land. Religion is a repressive
belief
because it gives people an excuse to ignore the problems at
hand.
And even if my political analysis were faulty, one would still want to
help a neighbour with his delusions. Suppose your neighbour
thought that
the tree in his garden was talking to him and guiding all his
actions.
Wouldn't you want to straighten him out?
> 1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly
and
> always (sic) ]
> 2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to
be fulfilled
> 3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have
to ask God, as
> Pastor Marc has recently
> pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
> 4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking
for s.o. to die)
> 5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not
suppoed to hope
> for
> If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God
you'll be healed
> If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up
thus they pray God
> you will wake up.
> If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets
back here, thus
> nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
> 6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them
strength and hope and
> to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray
for them to come
> back to life.
> Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
> 7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
> 8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't
heal the amputees,
> why not
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule
out the Holocaust?
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset
the universe to
> *Man = Good*?
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make
us all young again?
> 9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not
*hopeable*
> ( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just
wanted to make it
> claer...:-)))
> 10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be,
in the end, unless
> it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really
mean it!)
> a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question;
*Why does God accept
> evil*?
> 11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious
(and actually
> unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know,
Christians believe
> God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept
it.
> re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but
he won't because he
> will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
> This is just to put it in a nutshell, my friend, as I said above.
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uOakh.529710$R63.317129@pd7urf1no...
>> Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much
time desperately
>> clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence of
God?
>> Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours
trying to disrupting
>> our faith?
> It's all about believing in pie in the sky when you die
******************CUT******************
You haven't answered my questions yet.
:-)
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> You haven't answered my questions yet.
Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I thought I
had
answered your questions. Let me try again
You asked, "Have you ever wondered why these people spend so much time
desperately clutching at straws to demonstrate the non-existence
of God?
Have you ever wondered why they spend so many hours trying to
disrupting
our faith?"
I definitely answered that one. I basically said that
atheists want to
help misguided people break out of their illusions and become
productive
( progressive) citizens.
You also said, "I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist
NG!"
If it turned out that Bob Dylan had become an atheist, would
you stay
away from rmd?
Now, if I missed any other questions, please write them
again.
What's your answer?
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:6ackh.524378$5R2.277126@pd7urf3no...
>> You haven't answered my questions yet.
> Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I thought I had
> answered your questions.
No, you haven't.
And my questions were not only relegated in the final part of my
post.
There were plenty in my quick survey on *why the godhaters are
silly*
:-)))
> I definitely answered that one. I basically said that
atheists want to
> help misguided people break out of their illusions and
become productive
> ( progressive) citizens.
But that's not an answer 'cos that's not related to what I was
asking.
I was asking if you realize (you surely do, I know, it was just
rethorical)
that everybody perfectly realizes these people are simply scared
of God.
This might be a summary of my first post:
FIRST PART
The obvious objections to the laughable *godhatestheamputees*
stuff
SECOND PART
Now you do realize they are either joking or silly or don't you?
In other words, I thiught you posted a reaction to my objections
or, at any
rate, an answer to the *do you realize or not* question.
Now you come out and pretend you think those people are serious,
which I
know it's not what you think it's really real.
But you know better, don't you?
:-D
> You also said, "I wouldn't spend one minute in an atheist
NG!"
> If it turned out that Bob Dylan had become an atheist, would you stay
away
> from rmd?
Now what has this got to do with this (off) topic???
Were Dylan an atheist, should this fact make his NG an atheist
group???
What are you talking about???
Are all Cat Stevens fans islamic???
Is Mel Gibson's fanbase a catholic association???
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
>> Beppe, your emails tend to get a little confusing. I
thought I had
>> answered your questions.
> No, you haven't.
> And my questions were not only relegated in the final part
of my post.
> There were plenty in my quick survey on *why the godhaters
are silly*
Beppe, you may believe that I haven't answered your questions,
and you
are certainly entitled to your belief. But reading over your
first post,
I can't find any questions I haven't answered, so unless you can
rephrase or rewrite these questions, I am going to have to
assume they
are holy ghost questions that only some people can see.
One thing I did notice is that you have tried to change the debate
about
amputees into the big, answerable question of why god accepts
evil. This
is missing the whole point. The existence of amputees on our
planet is a
much smaller issue, but because God cannot grow their limbs
back,
despite His being able to cure all other diseases when He wants
to, this
leads to an unraveling of the whole illusion.
|
|
"Barbara" <barbarac ...@yahoo.com>
wrote in message
news:FxRjh.3390$sp7.513@newsfe14.phx...
> I haven't gone to the site but obvious everyone who wrote
there had God
> answer "no" to their prayers.
> I don't believe God says yes to every prayer request. I am
curious if
> there
> are amputees that had a miracle of a restoring arm or leg.
That is the crux of the purpose of the website. Of course
everyone knows
God doesn't say yes to every prayer. But why has God always,
every single
time, for all time, said "no" to the prayers of amputees when
he's
supposedly answered the prayers of others. Why is God so
hateful towards
amputees? Why are cancer, etc victims more worthy of having
their prayers
answered than amputees? Why has there never been a documented
case of an
amputee getting his limb back through prayer? It may seem silly
on the
surface, but these are valid questions.
|
|
"frinjdwelr" <frinjdw ...@charter.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:o7okh.1537$lG4.807@newsfe04.lga...
> That is the crux of the purpose of the website. Of course
everyone knows
> God doesn't say yes to every prayer. But why has God
always, every single
> time, for all time, said "no" to the prayers of amputees
when he's
> supposedly answered the prayers of others. Why is God so
hateful towards
> amputees? Why are cancer, etc victims more worthy of
having their prayers
> answered than amputees?
They aren't worthier at all.
That's why:
(read particularly points from 5 to 9)
*********************************************************
1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly
and
always (sic) ]
2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to be
fulfilled
3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have to ask
God, as
Pastor Marc has recently
pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking for
s.o. to die)
5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not
suppoed to hope
for
If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God you'll
be healed
If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up thus
they pray God
you will wake up.
If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets back
here, thus
nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them strength
and hope and
to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray for
them to come
back to life.
Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't heal
the amputees,
why not
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule out the
Holocaust?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset the
universe to
*Man = Good*?
God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make us all
young again?
9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not *hopeable*
( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just wanted
to make it
claer...:-)))
10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be, in the
end, unless
it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really mean
it!)
a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question; *Why does
God accept
evil*?
11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious (and
actually
unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know,
Christians believe
God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept it.
re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but he
won't because he
will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
***********************************************************
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
you are NOT supposed to PRAY for things that YOU ARE NOT
supposed to
PRAY for?
say what?
thats some LOOPHOLE.
beppe wrote:
> "frinjdwelr" <frinjdw ...@charter.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:o7okh.1537$lG4.807@newsfe04.lga...
> > That is the crux of the purpose of the website. Of course everyone
knows
> > God doesn't say yes to every prayer. But why has God
always, every single
> > time, for all time, said "no" to the prayers of amputees
when he's
> > supposedly answered the prayers of others. Why is God
so hateful towards
> > amputees? Why are cancer, etc victims more worthy of
having their prayers
> > answered than amputees?
> They aren't worthier at all.
> That's why:
> (read particularly points from 5 to 9)
> *********************************************************
> 1. God doesn't *answer* prayers, WE are supposed to pray [untiringly
and
> always (sic) ]
> 2. We are not supposed to know which prayers are going to
be fulfilled
> 3. Ultimately, prayers are meant to ask God what we have
to ask God, as
> Pastor Marc has recently
> pointed out much better than I'll ever be able to do.
> 4. Surely prayers can't go a *wrong* direction (re: asking
for s.o. to die)
> 5. We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not
suppoed to hope
> for
> If you are ill, you may hope to recover thus you pray God
you'll be healed
> If you are in a coma, your parents may hope you wake up
thus they pray God
> you will wake up.
> If you have lost a child you DO NOT hope yout child gets
back here, thus
> nobody has ever prayed for children to get back to them
> 6. All parents who lost children pray God to give them
strength and hope and
> to give their children eternal peace but they NEVER pray
for them to come
> back to life.
> Have they (the godhatesetceteras, I mean) wondered why?
> 7. Things we pray for are *natural* things, then.
> 8. If God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't
heal the amputees,
> why not
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't rule
out the Holocaust?
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't reset
the universe to
> *Man = Good*?
> God = bad or God = superstition because God doesn't make
us all young again?
> 9. These things are *unprayable* because they are not
*hopeable*
> ( I know, I know, horrible attempts at neologisms, just
wanted to make it
> claer...:-)))
> 10. This thing of the amputees is as stupid as it can be,
in the end, unless
> it is simply (but it seems it's not the case, they really
mean it!)
> a metonymy of the bigger (biggest, possibly) question;
*Why does God accept
> evil*?
> 11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious
(and actually
> unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know,
Christians believe
> God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept
it.
> re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but
he won't because he
> will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
>
***********************************************************
> --
> 'till next time
> take care
> Beppe
>
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> >11. If we put it this way, the question becomes serious
(and actually
> >unaswered) even though, as I suppose you perfectly know,
Christians believe
> >God has accepted evil because he wanted // had to accept
it.
> >re: God *can* create a stone so big he can't move it but
he won't because he
> >will be able to do it, then, remember? :-D
> Jeeeezusss keee-rist on a stick....
AMEN.
|
|
"musicaner" <musica ...@hotmail.com>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167230964.007711.236600@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> you are NOT supposed to PRAY for things that YOU ARE NOT
supposed to
> PRAY for?
> say what?
> thats some LOOPHOLE.
Loophole???
I'd rather call them *reading comprehension* problems!!!
:-D)
All jokes apart, my sentence was :
*We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not suppoed
to hope
> for*
not the one you mis(wrote).
I take for granted you understand its meaning and, contextually, the
big
difference with the sentence you wrongly reported from my post.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> An atheist said, "If there is a God, may he prove himself
by striking
> me dead right now." Nothing happened. "You see, there is
not
> God." Another responded, "You've only proved that He is a
> gracious God."
> PM
you GOTTA be kidding.
|
|
"musicaner" <musica ...@hotmail.com>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167238882.525084.115320@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> i am not quoting anyone, tho I REALIZE that im not the
only one
> that is confused on the LOTTERY number question. are they
OK
> to hope for, and if not, why not? the worse that can
happen if
> you do hit the JACKPOT is you win MONEY.
:-)))
No, it's not ok.
Lotteries, winning money, betting..............they all belong
to the realm
of *luxury* and *greed*.
Like asking to get rich.
A contradiction in terms.
*__*
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
beppe wrote:
> "musicaner" <musica ...@hotmail.com>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:1167238882.525084.115320@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > i am not quoting anyone, tho I REALIZE that im not the only one
> > that is confused on the LOTTERY number question. are
they OK
> > to hope for, and if not, why not? the worse that can
happen if
> > you do hit the JACKPOT is you win MONEY.
> :-)))
> No, it's not ok.
> Lotteries, winning money, betting..............they all
belong to the realm
> of *luxury* and *greed*.
> Like asking to get rich.
> A contradiction in terms.
> *__*
heres where you LOSE me. every church/preacher etc etc that i am
familiar with ACCEPT MONEY! they ask for it and accept cash or
check
or even debit card. how can MONEY BE bad?
|
Beppe,
Please allow me to try to explain what everyone else is saying. On the
surface it seems simple; one layer down, semantics. At the core:
A very
important theological question that begs our attention.
Presuming that God has at times both answered prayers and
permitted
miracles to happen, and that in this way he has helped a great
many
people, why of all the great and many things that he has done
has he
not allowed one instance of a limb growing back at any time in
history?
Yea, to the believer, he has healed cancer, given sight to
the blind,
enabled the cripple to walk, brought people back from the dead
and
remedied about every affliction known to our kind, why has
bringing new
limbs to anyone one thing that he has never done?
Do you have an answer for this?
beppe wrote:
> "musicaner" <musica ...@hotmail.com>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:1167230964.007711.236600@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > you are NOT supposed to PRAY for things that YOU ARE NOT
supposed to
> > PRAY for?
> > say what?
> > thats some LOOPHOLE.
> Loophole???
> I'd rather call them *reading comprehension* problems!!!
> :-D)
> All jokes apart, my sentence was :
> *We are not supposed to pray for things which we are not
suppoed to hope
> > for*
> not the one you mis(wrote).
> I take for granted you understand its meaning and,
contextually, the big
> difference with the sentence you wrongly reported from my
post.
> --
> 'till next time
> take care
> Beppe
>
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> I hope so. I'm counting on the lottery for my retirement.
Puh-LEEEZE
> Jay-zusss, come to Poppa... I NEED those numbers!
> I've been praying for that Power Ball for years now, and so far it's
> not working. I just hope the Lord comes through for me
before I hit
> 65.
The lottery is almost as big a scam as religion. You are not
going to
win the lottery. The odds are against you. If you didn't buy
lottery
tickets, your chances of winning the lottery would not go down
by very
much at all.
The lottery is also totally unfair. Poor people spend money they can't
afford on false hope. This money then falls into the hands of
the
winner. It's not a good way to redistribute wealth.
If it turns out that the hope one gets from a lottery is a
positive
experience, then the government should offer that hope as a
service. Out
of tax money, one person a year could have their social
insurance number
chosen, and they would then be given 50 million dollars.
Presumably the
health benefits of such a scheme would pay for itself.
|
|
if i get the NUMBERS ill donate half my winnings to the CHURCH
so
they can go on and use about 10 percent of my 50 percent to help
the
poor!!
Wilbur Slice wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2006 08:32:57 -0800, "musicaner" <musica ...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Wilbur Slice wrote:
> >> On 27 Dec 2006 07:22:40 -0800, "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> An atheist said, "If there is a God, may he prove
himself by striking
> >> >> me dead right now." Nothing happened. "You see,
there is not
> >> >> God." Another responded, "You've only proved that He
is a
> >> >> gracious God."
> >> >> PM
> >> >you GOTTA be kidding.
> >> I liked the way George Carlin put it at one of his
gigs:
> >> If there is a god, let him send a lightning bolt and
strike...
> >> ... this audience dead right now...
> >how about LOTTERY numbers? are they on the OK list to
hope for?
> I hope so. I'm counting on the lottery for my
retirement. Puh-LEEEZE
> Jay-zusss, come to Poppa... I NEED those numbers!
> I've been praying for that Power Ball for years now,
and so far it's
> not working. I just hope the Lord comes through for me
before I hit
> 65.
|
|
"Just Walkin'" <kensh ...@comcast.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167262461.648150.177520@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Beppe,
> Please allow me to try to explain what everyone else is
saying. On the
> surface it seems simple; one layer down, semantics. At the
core: A very
> important theological question that begs our attention.
> Presuming that God has at times both answered prayers and
permitted
> miracles to happen, and that in this way he has helped a
great many
> people, why of all the great and many things that he has
done has he
> not allowed one instance of a limb growing back at any
time in history?
> Yea, to the believer, he has healed cancer, given sight to
the blind,
> enabled the cripple to walk, brought people back from the
dead and
> remedied about every affliction known to our kind, why has
bringing new
> limbs to anyone one thing that he has never done?
> Do you have an answer for this?
Yes, I have, my friend.
And I take advantage of your kind post to thank you for the
serious way of
putting down the question one more time.
But yes, I have an answer and yes, I have to repeat one more
time I have
already stated what the answer is
(what I *think* (it goes without saying) the answer is, since I,
as all
believers, live in hope and doubt at the same time)
Ok, here we go again:
No limb has ever been *recreated* because God is no magician and
no
comedian:
God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?) setting in
which there
is no room for *impossible* things.
The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live in a
material world
in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what science
(which, for a
believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
The same reason why can't we ask God not to grow old, so as to
say.
Otherwise we could more simply (and more logically) wonder why
God does not
heal the whole world *tout court*, not just amputees but also
wars, down
syndromes and age.
You kindly said *allow me to try to explain*
I'll tell you, with the same kindness, to re-read again what I
wrote in my
first *serious* post on the subject.
You're entitled to disagree and // or think that what I believe
sounds false
to you.
But you won't tell me it's not *an* answer.
*My* answer, of course, but still an acceptable and respectable
answer.
Here it was:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.dylan/msg/ba47d9bc8c237303?as_umsgid=45902b36$0$4252$4fafb...@reader1.news.tin.it
(hope it's a valid link)
:-)
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?)
setting in which there
> is no room for *impossible* things.
> The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live
in a material world
> in which even miracles belong to the realm of
*possibilities*
> A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
> A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what
science (which, for a
> believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
> No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an interventionist
God.
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:rnEkh.535671$R63.42966@pd7urf1no...
>> God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?)
setting in which
>> there is no room for *impossible* things.
>> The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live
in a material
>> world in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
>> A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
>> A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what
science (which, for a
>> believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
>> No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
> Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an interventionist God.
well, finally a clever objection!
:-D
Actually I only (very) partially do.
Surely I don't believe in the anthropomorphic shape an
intervening God would
assume.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:yyHkh.530887$5R2.99644@pd7urf3no...
>>> Beppe, you old rascal. You don't believe in an
interventionist God.
>> Actually I only (very) partially do.
>> Surely I don't believe in the anthropomorphic shape an
intervening God
>> would assume.
> So you believe in a shapeless, interventionist god that
doesn't violate
> the laws of physics. Can this god do anything at all
useful for us in our
> lifetimes?
Ok, Don, I think a clever argument has been set, now.
:-)
Yes, I believe in a God that does NOT violate the laws of physics.
I call Him, go figure, a *scientific God*.
I think God exists because he *must* exist, when all is said and
done.
And, no, I don't think he can do anything *useful* for us,
provided *useful*
means acquiring richness, using Him as a bancomat of wishes or
an online
girl call center.
This world, at the end of the day, is the Kingdom of Evil; it
has always
been (we dont' know why) since the day of the apple.
And *My Kingdom is not of this world* (He said); do not forget
this.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
> Yes, I believe in a God that does NOT violate the laws of
physics.
> I call Him, go figure, a *scientific God*.
> I think God exists because he *must* exist, when all is
said and done.
> And, no, I don't think he can do anything *useful* for us,
provided *useful*
> means acquiring richness, using Him as a bancomat of
wishes or an online
> girl call center.
> This world, at the end of the day, is the Kingdom of Evil;
it has always
> been (we dont' know why) since the day of the apple.
> And *My Kingdom is not of this world* (He said); do not
forget this.
Well, beppe, it shouldn't be too hard to straighten out all the
crazy
contradictions in your stated beliefs here.
Isn't god's will supposed to be carried out on earth as it is in
heaven?
Can't this god deliver us from evil, or does that just happen
after we
die? What does this god who must exist actually do? Does he just
sit
back and watch people die from wars and disease and traffic
accidents?
I'm not suggesting that god give people winning lottery tickets,
but it
seems to me that if you're going to actually believe in a god,
it should
be a god that has some powers to do some good on the planet.
And I must say, I take offense at you calling the world the
Kingdom of
Evil. That's precisely the kind of thinking that allows
religious people
to ignore all the problems in the world and tell people to wait
until
they die for a decent life. I would say that the world isn't
evil, but
that kind of thinking is evil.
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:SsQkh.536994$R63.372932@pd7urf1no...
> Well, beppe, it shouldn't be too hard to straighten out
all the crazy
> contradictions in your stated beliefs here.
Ok, have a go!
> Isn't god's will supposed to be carried out on earth as it
is in heaven?
No, not exactly.
> Can't this god deliver us from evil,
No, if you say he *can't*.
He *could* but he *can't*
( ........can he create a stone....)
:-)
or does that just happen after we
> die?
Yes
(more or less so....)
>What does this god who must exist actually do?
he doesn't *do* nothing, actually.
God is (basically) transcendent.
Does he just sit
> back and watch people die from wars and disease and
traffic accidents?
Even less than this.
He has created the world and free will.
He doesnt' need to either sit or watch.
> I'm not suggesting that god give people winning lottery
tickets, but it
> seems to me that if you're going to actually believe in a
god, it should
> be a god that has some powers to do some good on the
planet.
Why so?
(I've already told you, my God is not a MiracleMat God)
> And I must say, I take offense at you calling the world
the Kingdom of
> Evil.
I'm sorry you take offense.
Still that's waht I think.
And I always say what I think when I speak with friends.
That's precisely the kind of thinking that allows religious people
> to ignore all the problems in the world and tell people to
wait until they
> die for a decent life.
Not me, but actually there are lots of believers who act like
that
I would say that the world isn't evil, but
> that kind of thinking is evil.
I'll take that.
I won't take offense
:-)
Don,
by the way.
Among the several questions you left unaswered in spite of what
you say
(there were 12, I counted them)
.-)))
there's only one which I think I'd rather rephrase because I'm
too curious
to have YOUR answer:
here it is (here it was, it was the last one)
********************************************************************************
If you were so convinced of the non-existence of a god or, at
least, of the
absurdity of the God I believe in,
why would you spend so much time and kilobytes trying to convert
me?
********************************************************************************
PS
The answer:
*I want to straighten you out* is not valid.
Unless you are in a position to demonstrate you spend the same
amount of
time in, say, Britney Spears's NG to tell her fans she's phoney.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
> May I suggest more public places full of delusional people
like we believers
> all are?
You know what I've noticed, beppe, is that many christians have
a
persecution complex. You keep asking why I am trying to convert
you. I
don't think I am trying to convert you. I'm just trying to stand
up for
the truth.
When you utter the prayer, in rmd, that God bless James Brown's soul
for
eternity, aren't you trying to convert those that don't believe
in God
or in the Afterlife?
You don't see me posting the wish that James Brown's body rot
and get
recycled, and the spark of life that animated him in his time on
earth
be now turned off, into an endless sleep. If I did post that,
would I be
attacking your faith?
|
|
"really real" <reallyr ...@shaw.ca>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:PHTkh.531749$5R2.210720@pd7urf3no...
>> May I suggest more public places full of delusional
people like we
>> believers all are?
> You know what I've noticed, beppe, is that many christians have a
> persecution complex.
I was ironic.
I've know what having a complex means, trust me, but it was no
persecution
complex.
:-)
You keep asking why I am trying to convert you.
Only partially so.
The question of *why are you trying to convert me?*
was not // is not centered on the *converting issue*; it's
mostly centered
on the *why*, as I have explained ad nauseam.
Have you wondered why I don't feel the urge to do the same with
you?
Asking *why are you trying to convert me?* is another way to ask
*do you realize you're fighting your fears, not my faith*?
But I know you know.
:-)
When you utter the prayer, in rmd, that God bless James
Brown's soul for
eternity, aren't you trying to convert those that don't believe
in God
or in the Afterlife?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
THE MOST DEFINITE, TOTAL, COMPLETE AND THE LOUDEST *NO* IS THE
ANSWER TO
THIS QUESTION.
I'm not interesting in converting anyone.
Should I be, I'd start with my brothers and sisters.
But I believe they'll reach slavation much before I will.
> You don't see me posting the wish that James Brown's body
rot and get
> recycled, and the spark of life that animated him in his
time on earth be
> now turned off, into an endless sleep. If I did post that,
would I be
> attacking your faith?
Not at all.
Same way my posts do not attack anyone else's faith.
Those who feel a need to react against peaceful religious
attitudes do so
(mostly) because // if they feel guilty.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
beppe wrote:
> "Just Walkin'" <kensh ...@comcast.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:1167262461.648150.177520@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Beppe,
> > Please allow me to try to explain what everyone else is
saying. On the
> > surface it seems simple; one layer down, semantics. At
the core: A very
> > important theological question that begs our attention.
> > Presuming that God has at times both answered prayers
and permitted
> > miracles to happen, and that in this way he has helped a
great many
> > people, why of all the great and many things that he has
done has he
> > not allowed one instance of a limb growing back at any
time in history?
> > Yea, to the believer, he has healed cancer, given sight
to the blind,
> > enabled the cripple to walk, brought people back from
the dead and
> > remedied about every affliction known to our kind, why
has bringing new
> > limbs to anyone one thing that he has never done?
> > Do you have an answer for this?
> Yes, I have, my friend.
> And I take advantage of your kind post to thank you for
the serious way of
> putting down the question one more time.
> But yes, I have an answer and yes, I have to repeat one
more time I have
> already stated what the answer is
> (what I *think* (it goes without saying) the answer is,
since I, as all
> believers, live in hope and doubt at the same time)
> Ok, here we go again:
> No limb has ever been *recreated* because God is no
magician and no
> comedian:
> God has already set the Universe to its entropic (?)
setting in which there
> is no room for *impossible* things.
> The kingdom of perfection is still to come; here we live
in a material world
> in which even miracles belong to the realm of *possibilities*
> A cancer *may* be cured thus sometimes it IS cured.
> A cut limb remains such forever becuase that's what
science (which, for a
> believer it is nothing but God's plan) demands.
> No miracle eludes the boundaries of science.
> The same reason why can't we ask God not to grow old, so
as to say.
> Otherwise we could more simply (and more logically) wonder
why God does not
> heal the whole world *tout court*, not just amputees but
also wars, down
> syndromes and age.
> You kindly said *allow me to try to explain*
> I'll tell you, with the same kindness, to re-read again
what I wrote in my
> first *serious* post on the subject.
> You're entitled to disagree and // or think that what I
believe sounds false
> to you.
> But you won't tell me it's not *an* answer.
> *My* answer, of course, but still an acceptable and
respectable answer.
> Here it was:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.dylan/msg/ba47d9bc8c237303?as_umsgid=45902b36$0$4252$4fafb...@reader1.news.tin.it
> (hope it's a valid link)
> :-)
> --
> 'till next time
> take care
> Beppe
>
www.giuseppegazerro.com
Beppe,
Thank you for your very long and reassuring message, but as an answer,
it only raises more questions.
As you know, there are species in this world that can
regenerate body
parts: certain lizards, amphibians, crustaceans have been
observed to
have this ability.
Also, as pointed out by brethren in this group, scientists
are working
all the time to unlock this mystery of nature (or God's
handiwork, if
you believe) for the good of people so affected.
Since the phenomena already occurs in nature and our medical
understanding and technology is increasing exponentially with
each
passing year, it may only be a matter of time before our species
achieves this ability. In fact, I'd say that the probability is
probably quite high.
How then do you (would you) explain God's inability or
refusal to do
this for anyone, least of all his most loyal and fervent
subjects, in
the face of such mortal achievement?
Are there any other examples in history that resemble this
line of
inquiry? How have they been resolved? Please only answer this
after you
respond to the primary question!
|
"Just Walkin'" <kensh ...@comcast.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167352044.153097.55400@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
> Beppe,
> Thank you for your very long and reassuring message, but
as an answer,
> it only raises more questions.
:-)
That's in the nature of religion.
> As you know,
*******************************
In fact, I'd say that the probability is
> probably quite high.
*************CUT************************
> How then do you
************CUT******************
Please only answer this after you
> respond to the primary question!
:-)))
Ok, I'll try!!!
But I'm afraid I've got no scientific answer or, at least, no
answer of the
kind you demand.
I believe in a *scientific* God but my faith is totally
intuitive.
Your precise questions are:
Q 1:How then do you (would you) explain God's inability or
refusal to do
this for anyone?
Q 2:Are there any other examples in history that resemble this
line of
> inquiry?
Q 2:How have they been resolved?
And I have no *technical* answers to none, my friend.
I'm sure in the past there were many diseases comparable to a
loss of a limb
nowadays (incurable, that is)
For example before the advent of pennicilin I think some
diseases were
definitely incurable.
For example one day we might discover that aging is a (sort of)
disease and
cure it.
Would then be logical to say today *God hates the old people
because he
never gets them to be young again?*
Why not, my god, one day we'll be able to avoid growing old,
can't you grant
that in advance to me right now?
Even death, someday, will be postponed or even defeated fair and
square, I
hear someone say.
But nowadays it would be nonsensical to say
*God hates the parents of dead children*
or
*God hates humanity because we die*, wouldn't it?
We accept death as ineluctable the same way we, nowadays, accept
amputatations as incurable.
We don't ask God to let one of our relatives live to 300 years,
to cure a
Down kid, to make Julius Caesar reapper or to delete the
Holocaust, do we?
We ask God to give us strenght, to save our dearest souls but we
don't ask
Him to send them back to earth, do we?
That would belong to the field of magic.
But I'm sure that won't satisfy your questions.
And I know you won't be satisfied with precise answers like:
A 1: God doesn't refuse anything, there are simply things that
happen
(healings) and that don't happen (resurrections), both in the
lives of
believers and in the lives of non-believers
A 2: Yes, all things that seemed to be *impossible* at a given
time in the
past
A 3: They haven't; they will, though: becoming *possible* and
entering the
realm of possibilities
And I won't tell you actually, these are my answers.
Because what I know is NOT why God doesn't heal the amputees (He
actually
doesn't!).
What my heart feels is that asking such a question is culturally
dishonest
(as I have widely explained) unless we wonder also why God
doesn't revive
dead children and // or why He makes us grow old.
And unless we accept, in the end, that God's acts (the acts of
God we grasp)
occur only (it couldn't be any different) into the realm of
human
possibilities.
What I know (what my heart feels) is that God exists, he doesn't
act
miracles on demand, he doesn't act beyond human ways, he asks us
to live our
life and to be satisfied with our lot, even when it's not
satisfactory.
And that prayers are immensely useful to grant the world a
better syntony
with Him (with the universe, if you prefer).
Call it looking for the wavlenght, if you like.
You ask and, as time runs by, you know what to ask.
You know what to ask and you get exactly what you want, when you
catch the
right wavelenght.
But I don't know HOW and WHY this happens.
As much as I pray everyday for peace because I know I have to, I
feel I want
to but I'm SURE wars will never end.
But you don't want to hear all that again.
:-)
Thank you for your kindness.
God bless you.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
Beppe,
I truly appreciate the thoroughness of your reply. Though you haven't
swayed me with your argument, I am impressed with your
sincerity.
But it has become apparent that there are three major threads
of debate
that run through this discussion. They are:
1) Whether God hates anyone.
In the Bible, God tells the Israelites not to celebrate the
drowning
of Pharoah's army because they are his children too and he
doesn't hate
his creations. The God of Abraham (and by extension, Ibrahim)
is not a
hateful God, hence nor should we be as a species, if we are, as
believers contend, presumably created in his image.
2) Whether prayer works.
If prayer results in a desired objective, it is probably more a
matter
of coincidence rather than divine intervention as prayer seems
to be
prove more theraputic for the practitioner than
results-oriented.
Remember: God never said that he helps those who help
themselves, a
major impetus of prayer in this young new century. Perhaps all
western
thought concerning the nature and value of prayer has been
corrupted
over the years.
3) Why prayer doesn't work.
When someone prays for strength to achieve a desired outcome, it
may be
enough to permit the summoning of strength to achieve the
objective if
such achievement is possible under natural law. If someone prays
for
the outcome itself, its achievement is most likely independent
of the
prayer.
What do you think Beppe? Are we close? Can we concur?
beppe wrote:
> "Just Walkin'" <kensh ...@comcast.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
>
news:1167352044.153097.55400@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
> > Beppe,
> > Thank you for your very long and reassuring message, but
as an answer,
> > it only raises more questions.
> :-)
> That's in the nature of religion.
> > As you know,
> *******************************
> In fact, I'd say that the probability is
> > probably quite high.
> *************CUT************************
> > How then do you
> ************CUT******************
> Please only answer this after you
> > respond to the primary question!
> :-)))
> Ok, I'll try!!!
> But I'm afraid I've got no scientific answer or, at least,
no answer of the
> kind you demand.
> I believe in a *scientific* God but my faith is totally
intuitive.
> Your precise questions are:
> Q 1:How then do you (would you) explain God's inability or
refusal to do
> this for anyone?
> Q 2:Are there any other examples in history that resemble
this line of
> > inquiry?
> Q 2:How have they been resolved?
> And I have no *technical* answers to none, my friend.
> I'm sure in the past there were many diseases comparable
to a loss of a limb
> nowadays (incurable, that is)
> For example before the advent of pennicilin I think some
diseases were
> definitely incurable.
> For example one day we might discover that aging is a
(sort of) disease and
> cure it.
> Would then be logical to say today *God hates the old
people because he
> never gets them to be young again?*
> Why not, my god, one day we'll be able to avoid growing
old, can't you grant
> that in advance to me right now?
> Even death, someday, will be postponed or even defeated
fair and square, I
> hear someone say.
> But nowadays it would be nonsensical to say
> *God hates the parents of dead children*
> or
> *God hates humanity because we die*, wouldn't it?
> We accept death as ineluctable the same way we, nowadays,
accept
> amputatations as incurable.
> We don't ask God to let one of our relatives live to 300
years, to cure a
> Down kid, to make Julius Caesar reapper or to delete the
Holocaust, do we?
> We ask God to give us strenght, to save our dearest souls
but we don't ask
> Him to send them back to earth, do we?
> That would belong to the field of magic.
> But I'm sure that won't satisfy your questions.
> And I know you won't be satisfied with precise answers
like:
> A 1: God doesn't refuse anything, there are simply things
that happen
> (healings) and that don't happen (resurrections), both in
the lives of
> believers and in the lives of non-believers
> A 2: Yes, all things that seemed to be *impossible* at a
given time in the
> past
> A 3: They haven't; they will, though: becoming *possible*
and entering the
> realm of possibilities
> And I won't tell you actually, these are my answers.
> Because what I know is NOT why God doesn't heal the
amputees (He actually
> doesn't!).
> What my heart feels is that asking such a question is
culturally dishonest
> (as I have widely explained) unless we wonder also why God
doesn't revive
> dead children and // or why He makes us grow old.
> And unless we accept, in the end, that God's acts (the
acts of God we grasp)
> occur only (it couldn't be any different) into the realm
of human
> possibilities.
> What I know (what my heart feels) is that God exists, he
doesn't act
> miracles on demand, he doesn't act beyond human ways, he
asks us to live our
> life and to be satisfied with our lot, even when it's not
satisfactory.
> And that prayers are immensely useful to grant the world a
better syntony
> with Him (with the universe, if you prefer).
> Call it looking for the wavlenght, if you like.
> You ask and, as time runs by, you know what to ask.
> You know what to ask and you get exactly what you want,
when you catch the
> right wavelenght.
> But I don't know HOW and WHY this happens.
> As much as I pray everyday for peace because I know I have
to, I feel I want
> to but I'm SURE wars will never end.
> But you don't want to hear all that again.
> :-)
> Thank you for your kindness.
> God bless you.
> --
> 'till next time
> take care
> Beppe
>
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|
"Just Walkin'" <kensh ...@comcast.net>
ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1167425250.645263.279510@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Beppe,
> 1) Whether God hates anyone.
> 2) Whether prayer works.
> 3) Why prayer doesn't work.
> What do you think Beppe? Are we close? Can we concur?
:-)))
Surely we are close.
Especially on point 3.
About point 1, I agree on the substance of the point you
make, even though I
must say the God of the Old Testament does somehow look
like a *bad* God, sometimes vindicative, other times unmerciful.
That's why, should they be forced to pick up just one book, most
of the
Catholics would choose the Gospel over the Old Testament any
day.
Not me, but this would bring us too far or, at least, to a
different
direction.
Point 2 remains what divides us (but it's not a problem,
isn't it') :-)
Should I be allowed to rephrase it, I'd say:
> If prayer results in a desired objective, it is a matter
> of coincidence with the divine plan and not a matter of
how much one
> deserves the gift he's praying for.
> Prayer is ulitmately meant to let the praying soul
understand what the
> divine plan requires from him/her.
--
'till next time
take care
Beppe
www.giuseppegazerro.com
|
|